Lionel Messi - v7

Daniele

Member
Only football novices don't understand how important things like tactical discipline and movement are. Guys who go on some stats sites and think they actually understand the game because they post some numbers and stats out of context.

This is the archetypal current Messi fanboy. Guys who have a very limited understanding of tactical aspects. We're wasting our type explaining to someone why a guy who doesn't respect his role and positions fucks up the whole pressing setup of a team for example. Like, when Alba does pressing instead of Messi vs Bayern in that video. How damn hard it is to understand such a basic tactical aspect. Such as when your fullback doing pressing upfront, 60m from his normal position, this causes enormous positional problems in defense once Bayern (easily) beats the press.

As long as Messi does what he wants on the field, and walks for extended periods of time, he is a problem. If by some chance, he corrects those things, rests more, runs more in the games he plays, and learns not to mess up our tactics and positions by doing what he wants, then we can talk.


You see, I agree on the importance of tactical discipline, and above all of the role of the coach.
I also agree on being critical of the players, and, as I explained, analyzing the reasons for Messi's poor performance.
But I do not recognize, having read you, that you have any right to feel a connoisseur of tactics.
I think coaches are not so foolish as to field players who harm the team. And that the whole narrative of the tyrant Messi who decides the formation in place of the coach is a conspiracy-minded delusion that only in this forum can have space.
As an aggravating circumstance, it is extremely boring and ridiculous this fact of labeling as Messi fanboy all those who have a different view.
That said, the question boils down to two different points of view:
Who believes that this Barcelona would do better without Messi, who believes the opposite...
points of view
 

malvolio

Senior Member
"Regardless of the fact that [Messi's] contract expires at the end of this season, because he is the present and at the same time living history of world football and of Barca, I intend to propose to our members via a referendum for the stadium to be renamed the 'Camp Nou Leo Messi." - Emili Rousaud, presidential candidate.

serghei, BBZ in tears, JamDav at the supermarket buying tons of napkins, the other puppies barking like mad :lol:
 

sikkboy

New member
You see, I agree on the importance of tactical discipline, and above all of the role of the coach.
I also agree on being critical of the players, and, as I explained, analyzing the reasons for Messi's poor performance.
But I do not recognize, having read you, that you have any right to feel a connoisseur of tactics.
I think coaches are not so foolish as to field players who harm the team. And that the whole narrative of the tyrant Messi who decides the formation in place of the coach is a conspiracy-minded delusion that only in this forum can have space.
As an aggravating circumstance, it is extremely boring and ridiculous this fact of labeling as Messi fanboy all those who have a different view.
That said, the question boils down to two different points of view:
Who believes that this Barcelona would do better without Messi, who believes the opposite...
points of view

That's a good post, Daniele.
 

serghei

Senior Member
You see, I agree on the importance of tactical discipline, and above all of the role of the coach.
I also agree on being critical of the players, and, as I explained, analyzing the reasons for Messi's poor performance.
But I do not recognize, having read you, that you have any right to feel a connoisseur of tactics.
I think coaches are not so foolish as to field players who harm the team. And that the whole narrative of the tyrant Messi who decides the formation in place of the coach is a conspiracy-minded delusion that only in this forum can have space.
As an aggravating circumstance, it is extremely boring and ridiculous this fact of labeling as Messi fanboy all those who have a different view.
That said, the question boils down to two different points of view:
Who believes that this Barcelona would do better without Messi, who believes the opposite...
points of view

I'm the only one here who posts from time to time tactical analysis of games and plays. So... I'm the best simply because I'm the only one who is willing to spend dozens of hours and go there. :lol:

As for Messi and tactics. It's simple really. Messi was always a player that posed tactical problems, and not small. Even since the days of Pep. But Guardiola was a genius and turned this into an asset with his False 9 plan. He was also lucky, because unlike others that followed him, he was given the supreme version of Messi, surrounded by equally bright football minds, who are able to implement that level of fluidity and very intricate moving patterns. Watch how Xavi and Iniesta synchronized every time Messi wanted to move somewhere. Guardiola, Xavi, Iniesta, Alves. These guys were vital in creating and implementing a style that turned Messi's tendency to create tactical problems into a strength.

After that, we had a brief period when Messi played as an explosive RW, with MSN. This was the most tactically solid version of Messi, like a superior peak Robben. Very streamlined, very hard to handle. Which is 2015. Other than that, the game had to be built on him, even at the expense of losing important things: such as inexistent or bad pressing, such as positional stability (the famous holes under EV, when we played 4-3-3 with a big gap on RW because Messi wasn't staying there), such as him invading other players' space and confusing them and so on. And we declined (and Messi declined as well) in terms of players and managers who could figure out how to turn those problems into valuable things for the team.

Messi's story was always about him having insane scoring and creating productivity at the expense of him causing tactical problems. When he was in his prime, he always brought more to the table than the problems he caused. Sometimes a lot more. As he aged and declined, this balance became a negative one, and right now, it's a tremendously negative one.

That's the issue. The fans simply live in complete denial.
 
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Mitchell1978

Senior Member
His finishing has declined a lot. That's fair to say and the biggest difference.

first half of the 2019-20 La Liga campaign (under Valverde) he was basically doubling his expected goals (which probably wasn't sustainable) since early 2020 he has massively undeperformed his expected goals...

that not a normal decline, makes me thinks its more mental and about form

Leaving Barca in the summer would have been best for him.
 

Daniele

Member
That's the issue. The fans simply live in complete denial.

Dude do u see what u're doing?
U give your point of view and then conclude saying that who disagree is a "fan living in complete denial".

I consider myself tactical aware, watching football since many years, and totally disagree with the principles of your analysis:
Messi wasn't a tactical mess, but absolutely a tactical advantage.
I sincerely find your analysis a simplification.

I can suggest links that analyze tactically Messi and Barca (serach the tags inside the sites and translate).
I would be happy if you would offer me too some sort of bibliography supporting your thesis of a Messi harmful to the team.
Thanks

https://www.ultimouomo.com/
https://assoanalisti.it/
https://barcelonaanalysis.com/
 

sikkboy

New member
Dude do u see what u're doing?
U give your point of view and then conclude saying that who disagree is a "fan living in complete denial".

I consider myself tactical aware, watching football since many years, and totally disagree with the principles of your analysis:
Messi wasn't a tactical mess, but absolutely a tactical advantage.
I sincerely find your analysis a simplification.

I can suggest links that analyze tactically Messi and Barca (serach the tags inside the sites and translate).
I would be happy if you would offer me too some sort of bibliography supporting your thesis of a Messi harmful to the team.
Thanks

https://www.ultimouomo.com/
https://assoanalisti.it/
https://barcelonaanalysis.com/

By 2014/15 he wasn't simply playing as an explosive RW, he was continually coming deep to around the half way, mainly central/right, and helping Xavi/Iniesta as their abilty to dictate was dropping off. Rakitic mainly doingthe dirty work for him. Of course it helped that he had three top notch forwardds running off him in Neymar, Suarez and Pedro. He was taking the ball and blowing past the opposition midfielders opening up th e space and feeding the frontline, and at the same time following his pass for the returns. Absolutely brilliant 'problem' to have.

It's still essentailly the same it's just the personnel have changed/declined, including Messi. He's just not as good as he was then, obviously it's to be expected.
 

Blackened

Well-known member
Why didnt we get Thiago is beyond me. He would have clicked with Leo. Another we should have gotten a long time ago is Verratti.
 

raskolnikov

Well-known member
Time for a goal from open play. At home Osasuna would normaly be a brace minimum for Messi.
I have him to score a goal at 1.8 odds, which is insane for Messi imo.
 

raskolnikov

Well-known member
I only see a 1.6 odd which is still very high for Messi standards. Usually at home against osasuna he has 1.3.
Unibet odds boost. Exactly, 1.8 is like Madrid at home for Messi not Osasuna. I honestly expect him to score 1/2 today after that little rest and dedicate it to Maradona.

If its a goalless lackluster performance once again I will be worried.
 

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