Lionel Messi - v7

[henias]

Yeah, it is always about the others.

Says the one who said its over for Messi and gave excuses for Griezmann who puts out 1 decent game every 10. never made any major impact during Valverde nor setien era. Clearly this team doesnt have a direct winger, times where we used to have Pedro Villa, Neymar Suarez, Dembele and now we are reduced to Griezmann Suarez. Not to mention Griezmann plays exactly like a second striker, which makes 2 SS in a team. Even if u think this is Messi problem, this team's attack is clearly laughable.

 

[KingLeo10]

I'm not talking about the young Messi. He was very good physically. Since 2013/14 his speed started declining. Even through his decline in speed, he has been the best individual player in the world, or do you believe the years CR7 won the ballon dor's he was actually better than Messi? The ballon dor has become an award for the best player in the CL winning team. If it was based on the best individual performance in a season, Messi should have won from 2009 onwards. This season is the only one where he hasn't been clearly the best

CR7 was better than Messi in 13/14 and 16/17 based on CL performances.

15/16 is a toss-up.

Messi deserved the Ballon D'Or in 12/13 where the voting was extended because he'd actually won his 5th in a row and they didn't want to do that. Other than that, the Ballons have been mostly fair.

 

[Batistuta9]

CR7 was better than Messi in 13/14 and 16/17 based on CL performances.

15/16 is a toss-up.

Messi deserved the Ballon D'Or in 12/13 where the voting was extended because he'd actually won his 5th in a row and they didn't want to do that. Other than that, the Ballons have been mostly fair.

That's exactly my point, better in terms of CL/team performances. The 13/14 season our team was so poor, it's why we got Luis Enrique and bought Suarez, rakitic etc the following year. But, on an individual level Messi was still better than CR7, similar case in 16/17 in Luis Enrique's final year. Can anyone really say when real Madrid didn't win a CL that CR7 individually still played the best?

It's no dig at CR7, but Messi is just a better all round player than him. It's like modric could win 3 ballon dor's but iniesta will be better than him.

 

[henias]

CR7 was better than Messi in 13/14 and 16/17 based on CL performances.

15/16 is a toss-up.

Messi deserved the Ballon D'Or in 12/13 where the voting was extended because he'd actually won his 5th in a row and they didn't want to do that. Other than that, the Ballons have been mostly fair.

Zidane got the best out of CR7 and preserving him for CL. Messi on the other hand played almost every single minute especially during Enrique's reign. Valverde did rest him sparringly but not enough but you could see the impact Messi has after a rest, notably performance against Chelsea. If you are talking about physical, Messi is always using his burst of speed which drains someone quick while Ronaldo is more a positional striker and aerial threat. Messi needs that rest for CL to perform. We didnt prioritise CL but Messi was by far better even in Clasicos.

 

[serghei]

That's exactly my point, better in terms of CL/team performances. The 13/14 season our team was so poor, it's why we got Luis Enrique and bought Suarez, rakitic etc the following year. But, on an individual level Messi was still better than CR7, similar case in 16/17 in Luis Enrique's final year. Can anyone really say when real Madrid didn't win a CL that CR7 individually still played the best?

It's no dig at CR7, but Messi is just a better all round player than him. It's like modric could win 3 ballon dor's but iniesta will be better than him.

Modric doesn't do anything better than Iniesta or Xavi though. Ronaldo does some things better than Messi. Messi is better than Ronaldo career wise, but the difference is smaller than Xavi/Iniesta vs Modric.

The BD reflects the reality imo. Messi is a bit better than Ronaldo.

 

[El Gato]

Modric doesn't do anything better than Iniesta or Xavi though.

Haha

 

[serghei]

Absolutely insane that he plays farther and farther away from goal as he ages.

Elite midfielders run 11-13 km a game. Even Pirlo ran this amount. He simply doesn't have the legs for what he wants to play.

Sadly, he is a bit clueless tactically. He doesn't really understand what being a midfielder means. He thinks it's only about trying fancy passes.

 

[Blaugrana Bull]

Says the one who said its over for Messi and gave excuses for Griezmann who puts out 1 decent game every 10. never made any major impact during Valverde nor setien era. Clearly this team doesnt have a direct winger, times where we used to have Pedro Villa, Neymar Suarez, Dembele and now we are reduced to Griezmann Suarez. Not to mention Griezmann plays exactly like a second striker, which makes 2 SS in a team. Even if u think this is Messi problem, this team's attack is clearly laughable.

Stop distracting, Griezmann has nothing to do with this. And I could not care less about him btw. Still think he could do more for the team and could be used better though.

I am just looking at Messi's game and I do not care about the team's set up. In the state our team is in I do not expect wonders from Messi and I do not expect him to win games against tough opponents on his own.
But what I see is a player who does not move at all without the ball and makes bad decisions with it most of the time. Messi's current performances are an actual joke compared to his usual showings and are not even comparable to a couple of games earlier this season.
And people who think he is just bad for his standards and still on a world class level should watch other top teams from Europe. There are plenty of players in Spain, England, Italy and Germany that are way better than Messi this season. Without question. His assist record means shit in this regard.

 

[henias]

Stop distracting, Griezmann has nothing to do with this. And I could not care less about him btw. Still think he could do more for the team and could be used better though.

I am just looking at Messi's game and I do not care about the team's set up. In the state our team is in I do not expect wonders from Messi and I do not expect him to win games against tough opponents on his own.
But what I see is a player who does not move at all without the ball and makes bad decisions with it most of the time. Messi's current performances are an actual joke compared to his usual showings and are not even comparable to a couple of games earlier this season.
And people who think he is just bad for his standards and still on a world class level should watch other top teams from Europe. There are plenty of players in Spain, England, Italy and Germany that are way better than Messi this season. Without question. His assist record means shit in this regard.

I ain't about distracting, you gave excuses for Griezmann in similar fashion, blaming others for his woes.

you are trippin mate. Messi is no where worse than other players from top teams in Europe. I watch players performance week in and out they are nowhere near as special too. Currently Barcelona plays possession football with no wingers, how'd you think that will work out? Even City struggle. Of course a team wil affect every players performances, a team has the ability to transition, draw out defenders, bring physical presence, create space, dribble which takes off the load of a single player and allow him multifaceted ways of making it click. Messi isn't immune to decline, but the current state of team isn't helping. Still, you are too demanding especially to someone who contributed and devoted his life to this club. Messi more or less has carried games singlehandedly, in turn the club can make things easier for him. But no, they bought another SS, who plays the same position.

The forwards are the real joke. And you should also look at the lineup of the top teams of Europe. Messi who doesn't move has been said over and over, its nothing new really. Messi starts to "regress" ever since Setien took over, they want him to play in a demanding system with shitty forwards that cannot penetrate low blocks, players who cant dribble aka griezmann, sell young midfielders like Arthur who can regulate play for another slow old midfielder in coming years. Yeah you tell me all about looking at individual performance but fail to understand football is a team game too. No way our current set of players can execute this system properly.

 

[Blaugrana Bull]

I know that football is a team game but every player has individual potential and should play up to it if his performances should be considered good.
As I said I do not expect Messi to play like he used to do and I do not expect the team to perform as well as they did a couple of years ago because of several factors.

BUT Messi's decisions on the ball these days are bad most of the time. We can focus on that aspect of his game because his play without the ball is nonexistent. In defense anyway and his movement in offense without the ball is laughable.
He misplaces passes and shots, he loses balls with careless passes and dribbles in dangerous areas of the pitch, he often slows down the team on counters and absolutely destroys the shape because of his choice where to walk around.

And the thing with team performance and Messi is: Every player needs the right role to perform well. You can make a less talented player great with the perfect or hinder the best player with the wrong role.
So what is Messi's role in this team? A completely free one that is not influenced by anything going on around him. No matter how or who the team plays, he chooses his free role, decides where to play and does not participate in defense.

He himself is responsible for his bad performances. And my critique has nothing to do with past achievements, Messi's records and everything he has done for Barca. He remains my favorite player in this team he is the greatest player I have ever seen but this has nothing to do with current performances.

 

[Blaugrana Bull]

And btw. to make my stance clear:
I think the whole team is responsible for the weak state we are in. Of course not only them but first of all Bartomeu and the board who have been destroying the club in the last couple of years.
I just think that is not the team that pulls Messi down and it is not Messi who pulls the whole team down. Everyone is responsible and Messi is a part of it. But in here it is basically unheard of to criticise Messi which is ridiculous.

 

[henias]

BUT Messi's decisions on the ball these days are bad most of the time. We can focus on that aspect of his game because his play without the ball is nonexistent. In defense anyway and his movement in offense without the ball is laughable.
He misplaces passes and shots, he loses balls with careless passes and dribbles in dangerous areas of the pitch.

Again, I repeat, no. Not remotely near what you're claiming. Mispassing is a norm in football unless he is going to play extremely safe backpassing in an already slow safe possession state. You are exaggerating to the point as if his passing succession rate is extremely low. In any attacking phase, thats normal. Neymar used to only have a 50% succession rate in a single season dribbling wise and got dispossessed multiple times. Messi still has 70% dribbling rate and has more dribbles than any other. Watch any highlights and you'll see how narrow Griezmann and Suarez plays. Opposition defence can stay compact without a problem as both are not a threat. Griezmann being slow and still playing deep 1-2s with Messi, ocassionally even in Messi's role during counter attacks. Suarez is the only one upfront but more often than not in offside positions. What I see is less options being viably available for a playmaker role in the team and less space to work with.

The only width provided is by the fullbacks who only short passes the ball where defenders see no threat too. Not simllar to wingers who can dribble and shoot while having width and pace.

 

[Vilarrubi]

And btw. to make my stance clear:
I think the whole team is responsible for the weak state we are in. Of course not only them but first of all Bartomeu and the board who have been destroying the club in the last couple of years.
I just think that is not the team that pulls Messi down and it is not Messi who pulls the whole team down. Everyone is responsible and Messi is a part of it. But in here it is basically unheard of to criticise Messi which is ridiculous.

No it isn’t. Check the last few weeks of this thread, that’s all it’s been basically.

 

[Tackle]

And people who think he is just bad for his standards and still on a world class level should watch other top teams from Europe. There are plenty of players in Spain, England, Italy and Germany that are way better than Messi this season. Without question.

What complete bollocks. I have been one of the users most critical of Leo this season, but to suggest he isn't world class anymore is lunacy.

Go on mate, name the "plenty" of players that have been better this season. Let's hear your list.

 

[MTL_Barca]

Individual impact/skill Messi is still far ahead of most if not all other offensive players, but then again that's honestly what he has to deliver every game to justify his free role and zero defensive contribution.

There is a huge imbalance with Messi between the pure genius with the ball and the tactical burden he is for a team nowadays, what makes it quite hard to actually judge him imo.

Still he's basically keeping the team alive because even if we'd remove Messi from the current team it would still be a bunch of drained old turtles. I'd rather replace Suarez, Rakitic, Vidal, Busquets first before thinking about Messi too much.