Lionel Messi - v7

[ArtistCatalunya]

You may use Messi as CF in two or three games, but that's all. He is SS, not a CF.
Let's imagine the coach wants him to play there as the front striker, do you think he will enjoy that position and flourish at it ?
As someone who knows Messi and his nature, it will be difficult for him to give his best if he doesn't enjoy and feel the pleasure of playing. He is better when dictating the game as CAM or SS, or as a winger when he was younger.
Also, the false 9 role used under guardiola is not the same as a CF. If you play Messi as CF, you will prevent him from using some main attributes: like the Vision, LongPasses.
In any case, things will be easier for Messi if you surround him with energetic players who can run and provide balance in the team.

 

[ItachiXXX]

im not a messi hater. i do think messi is better than CR; he certainly has been a better league player. but not in the CL and certainly not in the knockouts.

about anfield, that's a lazy argument. isnt messi supposed to be the best ever? shouldnt the best ever take matters into his own hands instead of relying on others? i know the maradona comparison is overdone, but what is maradone remembered for in the end? not any chances he created. experts and non experts remember maradona for scoring two goals against englad himself. messi managed a similar accomplishment in 09, 11 and 15, but not nice, not even close. instead, its disaster after disaster, year after year, coach after coach. 0-3 vs juventus; 3-0 or w.e against roma, 4-0 against liverpool, 8-2 vs bayern.

you'd forgive me for wondering what kind of best player EVER would be involved in so many humiliations.

See how stupid your argument. You talking about how people judge Maradona on his wins but Messi will be judge on his loses ? Messi is on the top of the food chain longer than Pele and Maradona against an equally Great Cristiano.

 

[Total-Football]

It's not a stupid argument. In most of those humiliations Messi was invisible..so it's not so much the losses that bother as the invisibility cape he wore during these games. It made him look like the rest of the lot.

 

[JohnN]

Read properly.

I said he has an edge in some areas compared to Messi. For fucks sake. Read properly.

Who has more goals in CL? Fucking Ronaldo by far. So, ergo, he has an age in a very important area compared to Messi!

It's absurd to argue with blind fans.


"in league campaigns Messi has an edge"

Oh, I can read pretty well. You said Messi has an edge in league campaigns. That's what I am answering too.
There is no point mate. Just acknowledge you dislike Messi and we can have the same convertation on better terms..

 

[serghei]

/thread
This dude already admitted Valverde is one of the BEST Managers

Hmm, that was Messi dude .

Oh, I can read pretty well. You said Messi has an edge in league campaigns. That's what I am answering too.
There is no point mate. Just acknowledge you dislike Messi and we can have the same convertation on better terms..

I dislike some things about Messi.

 

[JohnN]

To be clear and fair about my opinion:

Messi up until 2015 (2014 is an exception and a bad year - also unfortunate that WC was that year) had actually been on a level of his own. And that is the time of prime C. Ronaldo too.

After that, he declined physically, along with a heavy team decline, and has been on more equal terms with other top players (mostly Ronaldo, others were still below those 2).

Workrate has dropped and clutch moments have been there, but were less frequent.

Still, from 2007 to 2015 there was simply no competition. As he aged, the team surrounding him should have been rejuvenated, so his shortcomings could be better compensated.

We can't throw everything in the mix, as 2020 is not the same as 2010. Our expectations from a 30-33yo cannot be the same as if he is the still 20yo dribbling, shooting, pressing, running, passing and scoring alien machine. If we hold him up to those standards, he has been below his level since 2016 - except last season, which was actually on of the best seasons a 30+ yo player could provide.

The heavyweights in the team, Messi included, have gotten complacent after so many years at the top, to a point the believed they could win just by wearing the shirt with their name on. That shit should have been addressed by the board / coaches sooner and we wouldn't be in this mess.

On the issue of us being better than Sevilla without our top dogs.. we are not.
Player wise (we can do a h2h here and check if this stands),
we cannot justify being better without Messi, Suarez, Busquets, Alba and Pique. We would be on equal terms.

 

[Mitchell1978]

To be clear and fair about my opinion:

Messi up until 2015 (2014 is an exception and a bad year - also unfortunate that WC was that year) had actually been on a level of his own. And that is the time of prime C. Ronaldo too.

After that, he declined physically, along with a heavy team decline, and has been on more equal terms with other top players (mostly Ronaldo, others were still below those 2).

Still, from 2007 to 2015 there was simply no competition.

Last season was a good a season from him as the best seasons he had in the 2010-15 period, 2016-17 en 17-18 are also excellent seasons (one or two defeats don't make a season bad) and certainly better then 2013-14 and probably better then anything he did prior to 2010.

 

[Respekt_III]

To be clear and fair about my opinion:

Messi up until 2015 (2014 is an exception and a bad year - also unfortunate that WC was that year) had actually been on a level of his own. And that is the time of prime C. Ronaldo too.

After that, he declined physically, along with a heavy team decline, and has been on more equal terms with other top players (mostly Ronaldo, others were still below those 2).

Workrate has dropped and clutch moments have been there, but were less frequent.

Still, from 2007 to 2015 there was simply no competition. As he aged, the team surrounding him should have been rejuvenated, so his shortcomings could be better compensated.

We can't throw everything in the mix, as 2020 is not the same as 2010. Our expectations from a 30-33yo cannot be the same as if he is the still 20yo dribbling, shooting, pressing, running, passing and scoring alien machine. If we hold him up to those standards, he has been below his level since 2016 - except last season, which was actually on of the best seasons a 30+ yo player could provide.

The heavyweights in the team, Messi included, have gotten complacent after so many years at the top, to a point the believed they could win just by wearing the shirt with their name on. That shit should have been addressed by the board / coaches sooner and we wouldn't be in this mess.

On the issue of us being better than Sevilla without our top dogs.. we are not.
Player wise (we can do a h2h here and check if this stands),
we cannot justify being better without Messi, Suarez, Busquets, Alba and Pique. We would be on equal terms.

2009-2013,2015 was a different planet no one even comes close. 2017,2018 he was still levels above Ronaldo. the only years ronaldo was genuinely better than him were 2008,2014 & 2016 i think.

To add Ronaldo having a couple of decent games in a short knockout competition does not make him a better player due to the inherent chance built into the format of that competition.

 

[serghei]

2009-2013,2015 was a different planet no one even comes close. 2017,2018 he was still levels above Ronaldo. the only years ronaldo was genuinely better than him were 2008,2014 & 2016 i think.

To add Ronaldo having a couple of decent games in a short knockout competition does not make him a better player due to the inherent chance built into the format of that competition.

You mean when Ronaldo was ripping Atletico apart scoring a hattrick in the CL semifinal, Messi was better? No. I'd give 2017 clearly to Ronaldo. 2018 is close, but I'd give it to Ronaldo still, because of the Champions League, and Messi having an absolute stinker vs Roma.

I'd have it something like this.

Ronaldo: 2008, 2014, 2016, 2017, 2018.

Messi: 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2015, 2019.

Peak for peak, and early to mid career, Messi. Late career, Ronaldo.

2013, 2020, I think neither was better. Messi was injured that season in the most important part, and Ronaldo didn't do great either.

 

[serghei]

I think the Ballon d'Or count is about right. Messi edges Ronaldo by 1, while Ronaldo made it a very competitive fight due to his late career run, which coincided with Madrid's 3 consecutive CL wins, where Ronaldo was their most decisive player.

It's unlikely either win any more.

 

[Rory]

Being clutch for 4/5 games a season resulting in a ucl win genuinely wins you the balon d'or/ puts you in the top 5 at the very least. Not saying that's all Ronaldo did, he also scored pretty regularly but having the best/most consistent season =/= winning balon d'or and that's why the difference is only 1. Messi outperformed Ronaldo on a consistent basis throughout the seasons he went on to win it but he had a few big moments. Hence why the balon d'or is a trash measure of the best player throughout a year.

If the balon d'or wasn't cancelled and PSG win the UCL then Neymar probably would have taken it even though he missed 40% of matches.

 

[serghei]

Being clutch for 4/5 games a season resulting in a ucl win genuinely wins you the balon d'or/ puts you in the top 5 at the very least. Not saying that's all Ronaldo did, he also scored pretty regularly but having the best/most consistent season =/= winning balon d'or and that's why the difference is only 1. Messi outperformed Ronaldo on a consistent basis throughout the seasons he went on to win it but he had a few big moments. Hence why the balon d'or is a trash measure of the best player throughout a year.

If the balon d'or wasn't cancelled and PSG win the UCL then Neymar probably would have taken it even though he missed 40% of matches.

Champions League is the biggest competition and defines the most important part of the season. Ideally you need both, overall consistency over the league, and peak level in the biggest matches. But you can't say being consistent vs weaker sides over the season beats being decisive in the key games vs other European giants.

You need both, and both are key parts of a great season.

 

[Neymessi]

Champions League is the biggest competition and defines the most important part of the season. Ideally you need both, overall consistency over the league, and peak level in the biggest matches. But you can't say being consistent vs weaker sides over the season, beats being decisive in the key games.

You need both, and both are key parts of a great season.

I think people get their judgments extremely rosy with results. Winning a CL is a team thing and depends on a thousand factors, even individual performance is dependent on team quality. Cr7 won so many CLs thanks to his really good team. He wouldn't have won shit here where there was no service, he never lacked service at RM, all he ever did for the last 5 years is convert chances, that's it.

I can't rate someone that one dimensional to be the best player in the world. Someone who can't dribble past a single player can never be an individually better player than Messi.

 

[hendryrusli]

So what's the latest news on Messi? Is he staying? Is he going?

 

[serghei]

I think people get their judgments extremely rosy with results. Winning a CL is a team thing and depends on a thousand factors, even individual performance is dependent on team quality. Cr7 won so many CLs thanks to his really good team. He wouldn't have won shit here where there was no service, he never lacked service at RM, all he ever did for the last 5 years is convert chances, that's it.

I can't rate someone that one dimensional to be the best player in the world. Someone who can't dribble past a single player can never be an individually better player than Messi.

Ronaldo won that many CLs thank to his really good team and his goal-scoring abilities in clutch moments and key matches, which elevated that team to a new level. Same as Messi at Barca. Great team, but he elevated it.

That's how you win titles in football. You need a great team.

And about the bolded part, that's your preference. Ronaldo can do things Messi can't as well. Dribbling is also why I see Messi as the better player, but it's a personal taste, not a rock solid argument.