Lionel "The Greatest of All Time" Messi V2

A

ajnotkeith

Senior Member
Data analytics can never really give you an answer about which player is better, because in the end, it is the person receiving those stats who has to assign values and context to those numbers, and which categories they value more or less. You'd need a real intelligent football AI to be able to contextualise those stats.

With that said, there are not many arguments that can be made to put Ronaldo over Messi anyway, and in the GOAT debate, he probably isn't even the main rival.
 
bismp

bismp

Well-known member
Given that he is semi-retired now, here is my ranking of all his seasons as a professional footballer:

19) 2004/05
Barely counts
18) 2021/22
Horrible from start to finish, only saving grace is the Finalissima at the end of the season
17) 2005/06
First real season and first WC
16) 2019/20
Completely disengaged for large parts of the season, a big drop off from his last season, he failed to show fighting spirit in La Liga or the CL, resulting in the most humiliating season in the Barca shirt. Still made 20+ goals and assists
15) 2022/23
If he had somewhat kept his form from the first half of the season, along with the glorious WC, this could be a little bit higher
14) 2006/07
Starting to become the club's focal point
13) 2007/08
Already among the best in the world
12) 2020/21
Horrible first half, then produced an almost vintage run of games for 3-4 months but then failed along with the team on the finishing line. Extra points for the Copa though.
11) 2013/14
The odd season during his decade of dominance, injuries, the upcoming WC (which he kinda underperformed) and changes on the team produced a meh season. Still pretty good though for other players' standards.
10) 2015/16
Again another odd season, coming fresh from one of his best seasons ever, playing along prime Neymar and Suarez, it felt like he was not that motivated at times. Still he scored and assisted an amount of goals which could be considered career defining for other superstars, however the CL run left much to be desired
9) 2017/18
Probably the best season he could have had playing under Valverde and after the massive downgrade of Neymar -> Paulinho. He showed signs of his clutch gene of his past against Chelsea, but then he and the team collapsed against Roma. Plus, the 2018 WC was also a big disappointment, so this season could not have been placed any higher.
8) 2008/09
First season as a 10, treble, goals in crucial matches, exceptional dribbling etc. His first truly career-defining season, but still not a complete player
7) 2016/17
One of my favourite seasons of his. If he and the team did not collapse against PSG and Juventus, this would be higher. Despite not winning the league, this was one of his best La Liga seasons. Not only did he score a shit ton of goals, but the quality of most of them was astounding. He mastered the free-kicks this season, while also retaining some of his elite dribbling ability.
6) 2009/10
A big step up from his previous season, already being put in the GOAT conversation. Insane goals, insane dribbling and many clutch moments.
5) 2018/19
This season has been analyzed to death. The most complete version of Leo, producing vintage performances night after night at 31, while being the best FK-taker and one of the best creators on the planet. All of this, while playing in one of the most mediocre teams of his prime. What could have been...
4) 2012/13
The season that he truly mastered the art of goalscoring, scoring a brace for like 25 games in a row lol. In the meanwhile, he played in a dysfunctional team, which prevents this season of being any higher.
3) 2014/15
Here Messi is at the peak of his powers. A goal-scoring machine, one of his best seasons as a creator and still a fantastic dribbler. All this while winning the treble. The only reason keeping this season from getting higher is that he did not have that many iconic moments in the CL.
2) 2011/12
73 goals. 32 assists. Did not win any meaningful silverware, did not manage to beat Real/Chelsea, but in my eyes was the most unstoppable force football has ever seen.
1) 2010/11
When considering everything, probably the best season in history. Best scorer in the world. Best dribbler in the world. Best creator in the world. Most clutch player in the world.
 
soul24rage

soul24rage

Senior Member
That's a great list. This is controversial but I would move the 22/23 season in 9th place above the 17/18 season just because of that World Cup.

Although he lost his physical prime, he was a mentality monster in that World Cup and he became the captain that I always wanted him to be and showed true leadership in that tournament. The incredible connection that was formed not only with the squad itself but with the Argentinian fans was amazing to see.


 
bismp

bismp

Well-known member
soul24rage said:
That's a great list. This is controversial but I would move the 22/23 season in 9th place above the 17/18 season just because of that World Cup.

Although he lost his physical prime, he was a mentality monster in that World Cup and he became the captain that I always wanted him to be and showed true leadership in that tournament. The incredible connection that was formed not only with the squad itself but with the Argentinian fans was amazing to see.


Click to expand...
Valid point. Watching him dominate in this WC, despite losing most of his physical abilities, was indeed something special and without a doubt one of the highest points of his career. Thing is though, he was obviously much better night after night say in 2013/14, 2015/16 and 2017/18. If he had played this WC in 2018, then that season would easily be top 3 despite failing in the CL and being past his absolute prime.
 
Andresito

Andresito

Senior Member
Staff member
Think it's impossible for me to rank my favourite Messi seasons.

But I've always preferred the seasons where he truly dominates without necessarily breaking scoring records. 10/11, 14/15 and 18/19 are for me 'complete' Messi versions (even if he's been an absolute machine in other seasons as well).
I always think of that City game in 2015 where all he did was get an assist despite having a spectacular game, was amazing to watch. Coincidentally these were also the seasons where he truly stepped up against the best opposition.
 
Andresito

Andresito

Senior Member
Staff member
Temptation said:
Long shots, Crossing, Speed, Strength, etc
Click to expand...
Re long shots:
Despite Ronaldo's reputation for long-distance goals, it's actually Messi who has scored more goals from outside the box during their respective careers, even having played 139 fewer games than his rival. Messi has 88 career open play goals from outside the box, whereas Ronaldo has scored 63 outside the box goals.

Crossing, well sure. Ronaldo probably has more crossing assists but Messi was never a touchline winger or really operated in those spaces. If I'd have to choose one of them to deliver a cross into the box I'd choose Messi. I don't think you'd disagree here if you think about it. Would definitely have Ronaldo in the box though.

Speed or top speed rather, prime Ronaldo is a clear winner. But top speed matters very little to an attacker, acceleration is far more important. When does an attacker ever reach full speed? Chasing a through ball against a high defensive line? A counter attack? Great if you're an underdog but teams like Madrid and Barca rarely get those kind of spaces, maybe against each other as Bale did. Would be interesting to see some examples where Ronaldo's top speed was the biggest factor in his goals.

Strength.. well sure Ronaldo is bigger and has more visible abs. But what about balance? Prime Messi's balance is incredible, a lot more incredible than Ronaldo's ability to withstand physical duels with defenders. For all the strength Ronaldo had, he sure did fall very easily at times. Ronaldo's never been the player to seek out physical duels like say Ibra or even Lewandowski. Haven't seen many Ronaldo moments on the pitch where you go "damn that guy is strong".

Messi vs Ronaldo assist maps. Seems a chunk of Ronaldo's assists are from crosses or cut backs.
ErJgbMmXIAc7mVv.jpg
Eq-2ahUWMAMmz71.png
 
T

Temptation

Well-known member
Andresito said:
Re long shots:
Despite Ronaldo's reputation for long-distance goals, it's actually Messi who has scored more goals from outside the box during their respective careers, even having played 139 fewer games than his rival. Messi has 88 career open play goals from outside the box, whereas Ronaldo has scored 63 outside the box goals.

Crossing, well sure. Ronaldo probably has more crossing assists but Messi was never a touchline winger or really operated in those spaces. If I'd have to choose one of them to deliver a cross into the box I'd choose Messi. I don't think you'd disagree here if you think about it. Would definitely have Ronaldo in the box though.

Speed or top speed rather, prime Ronaldo is a clear winner. But top speed matters very little to an attacker, acceleration is far more important. When does an attacker ever reach full speed? Chasing a through ball against a high defensive line? A counter attack? Great if you're an underdog but teams like Madrid and Barca rarely get those kind of spaces, maybe against each other as Bale did. Would be interesting to see some examples where Ronaldo's top speed was the biggest factor in his goals.

Strength.. well sure Ronaldo is bigger and has more visible abs. But what about balance? Prime Messi's balance is incredible, a lot more incredible than Ronaldo's ability to withstand physical duels with defenders. For all the strength Ronaldo had, he sure did fall very easily at times. Ronaldo's never been the player to seek out physical duels like say Ibra or even Lewandowski. Haven't seen many Ronaldo moments on the pitch where you go "damn that guy is strong".

Messi vs Ronaldo assist maps. Seems a chunk of Ronaldo's assists are from crosses or cut backs.
ErJgbMmXIAc7mVv.jpg
Eq-2ahUWMAMmz71.png
Click to expand...

Messi's "long shots" are mostly from the edge of the box. Right outside the box.


Ronaldo's long shots have insane angles, distances and difficulty level with either feet. Plus way more shot power and different varieties of movement in the air.
 
T

Temptation

Well-known member
Madrid have been famous for their counter attacks over the last decade. Every team, big or small gets the opportunity to counter. It's about utilising it.


Ronaldo's pace is useless? Throughout his career it has helped him in counters, beating players and getting in behind. Gave him so many goals. Ofcourse top speed matters. So many famous players profited out of it. Not just acceleration matters.
 
Andresito

Andresito

Senior Member
Staff member
Temptation said:
Messi's "long shots" are mostly from the edge of the box. Right outside the box.


Ronaldo's long shots have insane angles, distances and difficulty level with either feet. Plus way more shot power and different varieties of movement in the air.
Click to expand...
Right, so Ronaldo has this huge toolbox of being able to shoot from different angles, distances and with both feet. And more ways of beating the GK. Still Messi has more goals outside the box. What's more important? Being efficient or being spectacular?

In line with the ancient argument of Ronaldo being more 'complete'. Can score with both feet, can score with his head. No weaknesses really. Still outscored by this weaker, slower, [mental] midget who can only score with his left foot.

Temptation said:
Ronaldo's pace is useless? Throughout his career it has helped him in counters, beating players and getting in behind. Gave him so many goals. Ofcourse top speed matters. So many famous players profited out of it. Not just acceleration matters.
Click to expand...
It's not useless. His brain and body is in perfect sync when it comes to scoring goals. It's rather his lightning quick reactions without the ball and his elite positioning in combination with his acceleration that's given him a chunk of his goals. It's a devastating combination, much more useful than being able to run fast for 50 meters. Would argue Ronaldo had more benefit of his acceleration rather than his top speed throughout his career.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Home of Barca Fans

Top