Luis Enrique

[serghei]

you mean we won more than 87 points ? Sure we did. But your attempt to back up the "marginally true" claim kinda gives the game away.

No, I meant dominating as in having 9 points advantage ahead of 2nd place and winning the title with 3 games left to play (2009) or beating your rival 6-2 and 5-0 in the process. Pep's record against Real Madrid was also better in those seasons, having played 4 games, winning 3 (two of them absolute trashings) and drawing one, when the title fight was pretty much over anyway. With Lucho we lost half of the clasicos. Not exactly the same kind of domination, is it?

If you really think the 2009 and 2011 Barcelona team didn't dominate La Liga more than Lucho's Barcelona you are very wrong. In both seasons in which we won the league with Lucho we had several moments in which the team had problems, but we managed to either come back from months of poor performances (january 2014, after a bad half a season) or recovering just in time to keep the huge advantage we had in march, clenching the title only 1 point ahead of Madrid. Both those two La Ligas were deserved, but they ended up being won at the death, each time, without us actually dominating the entire competition in the same fashion as we did under Guardiola.

 

[TornAndFrayed]

This is just cherry-picking. You've listed the things that these teams did better. I could do the exact same and rant on about the 4 0 at the bernabeu, record goals scored, record goal difference, better versatility, better la liga in general, etc.

Just because you decided lucho was done the other day doesn't mean you have to bring up Guardiola's finest achievements to demean him. It's not productive and quite lame imo.

 

[Ahmedd]

I think that Pep's vision had a huge impact on football in general from 2008 to 2013. Don't forget that tiki-taka won Spain many trophies. Guardiola won a lot and with style, he will be remembered for that. But style in football doesn't matter, ask Portugal Enrique added balance to the team, in 2015 we had one of the best defences. But i don't think that this Barca will be remembered for that : It will be remembered for the MSN. Pep's Barca was an unstoppable machine, Enrique's Barca is unpredictable. We can't know wich one contributed most yet, only time will tell us.

 

[Horatio]

I am still behind him.

 

[Barcaman]

I am still behind him.

Don't get too close though.

 

[Horatio]

Don't get too close though.

You standing in between us prevents that from happening.

 

[Barcaman]

You standing in between us prevents that from happening.

 

[BarcaOG]

Yes the league is stronger but we don't exactly dominate it like we did under Pep in 2009 and 2011.

lol...yes. We don't 'exactly dominate it like we did under Pep in 2009 and 2011' precisely because the league is stronger.

There's nothing surprising about that. Heed your premises.

 

[Aryagorn]

I think that Pep's vision had a huge impact on football in general from 2008 to 2013. Don't forget that tiki-taka won Spain many trophies. Guardiola won a lot and with style, he will be remembered for that. But style in football doesn't matter, ask Portugal Enrique added balance to the team, in 2015 we had one of the best defences. But i don't think that this Barca will be remembered for that : It will be remembered for the MSN. Pep's Barca was an unstoppable machine, Enrique's Barca is unpredictable. We can't know wich one contributed most yet, only time will tell us.

Spain's success being attributed to Pep is so unfair..... Spain's success started in 2008, Aragonés should be the one who should get the credit for turning the eternal chokers into actual winners! At least Pep, unlike Aragonés or del Bosque, had Leo, arguably the greatest player ever, leading his team!!

 

[serghei]

This is just cherry-picking. You've listed the things that these teams did better. I could do the exact same and rant on about the 4 0 at the bernabeu, record goals scored, record goal difference, better versatility, better la liga in general, etc.

Just because you decided lucho was done the other day doesn't mean you have to bring up Guardiola's finest achievements to demean him. It's not productive and quite lame imo.

I'm not demeaning Lucho by saying Guardiola's team was superior. It's what 90% of the people think anyway. I like Lucho myself as well, but let's not get carried away here. Barca 2009 and Barca 2011 was more dominant. I didn't cherry-pick anything, I took the three most important aspects which show the best the degree in which a team dominates a competition: a) nr. of points ahead of the 2nd place (if you win 70 points and the 2nd placed team wins 50 points it's dominating, if you win 150 points and the 2nd team wins 149 it's not dominating), b) dominating your mai rival (you can talk about 4-0 on Bernabeu as well, but also about the 3-1 loss and the 2-1 loss on Camp Nou, which in 2009 and 2011 never happened), c) being able to maintain the high level over the course of the season. You're telling me that in the season in which we (majoritar opinion) wanted to sack Lucho for not performing in La Liga, we were more dominant than in Pep's best years? It's ludicrous.

 

[TornAndFrayed]

I'm not demeaning Lucho by saying Guardiola's team was superior. It's what 90% of the people think anyway. I like Lucho myself as well, but let's not get carried away here. Barca 2009 and Barca 2011 was more dominant. I didn't cherry-pick anything, I took the three most important aspects which show the best the degree in which a team dominates a competition: a) nr. of points ahead of the 2nd place (if you win 70 points and the 2nd placed team wins 50 points it's dominating, if you win 150 points and the 2nd team wins 149 it's not dominating), b) dominating your mai rival (you can talk about 4-0 on Bernabeu as well, but also about the 3-1 loss and the 2-1 loss on Camp Nou, which in 2009 and 2011 never happened), c) being able to maintain the high level over the course of the season. You're telling me that in the season in which we (majoritar opinion) wanted to sack Lucho for not performing in La Liga, we were more dominant than in Pep's best years? It's ludicrous.

Nah, I'm not interested in judging who was more dominant, you are. And i don't know what prompts you to do so. But you clearly have an angle and dismiss/ignore arguments that don't go that way, like the arch-dominance that la liga developed in recent years, and the continued 90+points barca achieves in spite of it. Or the 14/15 CL campaign that barca strolled through despite one of the strongest route ever.

 

[El Flaco]

I think that Pep's vision had a huge impact on football in general from 2008 to 2013. Don't forget that tiki-taka won Spain many trophies. Guardiola won a lot and with style, he will be remembered for that. But style in football doesn't matter, ask Portugal Enrique added balance to the team, in 2015 we had one of the best defences. But i don't think that this Barca will be remembered for that : It will be remembered for the MSN. Pep's Barca was an unstoppable machine, Enrique's Barca is unpredictable. We can't know wich one contributed most yet, only time will tell us.

Aragonés had influence on Spain and that Vicente del Bosque continued to built on, something even Xavi has talked about. Aragonés was the one who made the players to believe it, he was the one who turned such an eternal underperforming national team like Spain into a actual power horse. He also made Xavi the most important player for Spain during World Cup 2006 when the latter barely played in Barça due to injury. The likes of Xavi, Iniesta, Silva, etc. played tiki-taka under Aragonés before Guardiola.

I like Guardiola as much as the next guy but let's be honest here. It's not like FC Barcelona or any football didn't exist before Pep was in charge at the club. And let's not forget that VdB, regardless of his poor results in his end, was actually a very merited coach. I don't buy the narrative that Pep deserve any credit for Spain's success. They were already coming up and won Euro 2008.

 

[serghei]

Nah, I'm not interested in judging who was more dominant, you are. And i don't know what prompts you to do so. But you clearly have an angle and dismiss/ignore arguments that don't go that way, like the arch-dominance that la liga developed in recent years, and the continued 90+points barca achieves in spite of it. Or the 14/15 CL campaign that barca strolled through despite one of the strongest route ever.

OK, so then why are you replying to me about what I said in an issue you're not interested in? Doesn't make sense. Archdominance of La Liga in recent years is only tied down to Atletico Madrid. Don't go overboard with this. Back in Pep's days it was as tough to play as it is now. Didn't Sevilla and Espanyol play the UEFA Cup final in 2007? Didn't Sevilla and Barca play the supercup in 2006, after Barca won the CL and Sevilla won the UEFA Cup? It was a tough league then and it is a tough league now. The difference is that Pep's team was also more dominant because Pep is a better manager.

There's a reason why many specialists talk about Pep's Barca as probably the best team ever, and not about Lucho's Barcelona. Lucho's Barcelona is just a 'standard' great team, which works only because we have world class players like Neymar and Suarez, very much like a Galactico Madrid functioned in the early 00's. Nothing too complex, just give the ball to Messi, Neymar, Suarez, Zidane, Figo etc. and they will invent something or score a great goal.

Pep's team was different, it was a world class team which on top of great players on each position had that stroke of genius that Pep himself added. A component that can only come from the manager and that is extremely rare, and one that Lucho just doesn't have it.

"Archdominance of La Liga" Good job using just one team to illustrate the entire league is harder, or better. We're supposed to expect to make less points in the league now because of Atletico? As if Atletico being in the league has anything to do with us losing points to the likes of Alaves at home.

 

[TornAndFrayed]

OK, so then why are you replying to me about what I said in an issue you're not interested in? Doesn't make sense. Archdominance of La Liga in recent years is only tied down to Atletico Madrid. Don't go overboard with this. Back in Pep's days it was as tough to play as it is now. Didn't Sevilla and Espanyol play the UEFA Cup final in 2007? Didn't Sevilla and Barca play the supercup in 2006, after Barca won the CL and Sevilla won the UEFA Cup? It was a tough league then and it is a tough league now. The difference is that Pep's team was also more dominant because Pep is a better manager.

"Archdominance of La Liga" Good job using just one team to illustrate the entire league is harder, or better. We're supposed to expect to make less points in the league now because of Atletico? As if Atletico being in the league has anything to do with us losing points to the likes of Alaves at home.

Because your arguments suck dude. FYI, i think guardiola is better, more talented etc and i doubt a lot of people disagree.

Regardless of this opinion, his and lucho's first two seasons were both absurdly successful. No one said Lucho was more talented. People said he's as successful so far, and you mistake it as a slight to guardiola's superior coaching ability.

Which is why you only list the particular achievements of guardiola's first two seasons, and play down everything else. Like dumbing down la liga's dominance to Atletico. That is a truly ridiculous claim to put it mildly.
You even brought up Sevilla and Espanyol's performances in Europe 2-3 years before Guardiola took over . What about Sevilla's double then treble in the Europa League in Lucho's time ? Or the fact that of the last 16 KO rounds played between spanish and foreign teams, spanish teams won 15 (and 45 out of the last 48 ) (athletic, villareal, valencia you know ?) What about the 5 spanish CL finalists in the past 3 years ? No, it's Atletico

Whatever floats your boat man. I reply because i want to correct you, not because i'm interested in this.

 

[serghei]

Because your arguments suck dude. FYI, i think guardiola is better, more talented etc and i doubt a lot of people disagree.

Regardless of this opinion, his and lucho's first two seasons were both absurdly successful. No one said Lucho was more talented. People said he's as successful so far, and you mistake it as a slight to guardiola's superior coaching ability.

Which is why you only list the particular achievements of guardiola's first two seasons, and play down everything else. Like dumbing down la liga's dominance to Atletico. That is a truly ridiculous claim to put it mildly.
You even brought up Sevilla and Espanyol's performances in Europe 2-3 years before Guardiola took over . What about Sevilla's double then treble in the Europa League in Lucho's time ? Or the fact that of the last 16 KO rounds played between spanish and foreign teams, spanish teams won 15 (and 45 out of the last 48 ) (athletic, villareal, valencia you know ?) What about the 5 spanish CL finalists in the past 3 years ?

Whatever floats your boat man.

La Liga was always tough in modern times. In early 00's you have Valencia as a top top team, later you have the incredible Superdepor, a little later you have Villareal which almost got to a CL final. In 2006 you had Sevilla, Barcelona and Villareal close to 3/4 finalists in CL and UEFA. That's just 2 years before Pep's Barcelona. Spanish football was always a top league in Europe in modern times.

You're telling me Sevilla is tough now, but in the times of Kanoute and Dani Alves and Fabiano it wasn't.
Or you're telling me Villareal is tough now, but in the times of Cazorla, Senna and others it wasn't. again.
You're telling me Atletico with Aguero and Forlan wasn't tough? OK, not as tough as now, but they played in CL before Simeone too. Beat us twice on Calderon in 2010 and 11, scoring us 4 goals once.
Real wasn't a top team? OK, in Europe they had problems, but before Pep came, they murdered us on Bernabeu 4-1 and were two time champions of Spain (2007 and 2008). After which with Mourinho (2010-12) they were damn strong, stronger than now with Zidane imo.

Plenty of top teams in Spain then, as it is now. In 2012, when Pep was still at Barcelona, and before Lucho's time, didn't Bilbao and Atletico play the Europa League final?

How recent is this growth you're talking about? To me, with some minor pauses, it goes on for more than a decade. The 90's are about italian football, but the 00's are about spanish football mostly.

I'll stop as it's pretty clear that since the turn on the millenium, Spain always had top teams, whether they were called Barca, Valencia, Villareal, Atletico, Superdepor or Real Madrid. Heck, even Malaga should've made a CL semifinal.

About Lucho's first two season, I've said it myself that they were very successful a lot of times. The problem is when comparing Lucho's Barcelona with Pep's Barcelona. And I didn't start the comparison.