Luis Suárez

[henias]

Disagree, maybe you forgot the 2012-13 and 2013-14 seasons. I disagree that Messi at 30 years old is better without a striker in front of him but even if it's true the team would be so Messi dependent that we would have no chance to win the CL. We looked absolutely clueless against top teams in 2013 and 2014 if Messi had a bad day. Messi saved us in 2013 against Milan and against PSG we couldn't create a single chance and we would have been eliminated if Messi didn't come off the bench. Against Bayern 7-0, and in 2014 it was even worse.

Without Suarez we would become an improved version of Argentina, but still basically a one-man team, more than we are now.

If u have Messi in such form in your team, anyone would build team around him instead of making a system to accomodate Suarez. Luckily Suarez has got back his sharpness and is a decent LF/LW, if not EV might have switched to the 4231.

Can you not read? lol. Suarez is playing the LF and LW role, the positions where Sanchez and Pedro used to play, and had he not got back his sharpness, he wouldnt function properly there and looked awkward at the start of the season.

And u misunderstood the whole post. I'm not saying Messi should score all the goals or be a one man team like Argentina (clearly Barcelona is nothing like Argentina) but main idea is Messi having the central role without worrying about accomodating Suarez. Of course, now I'm content with Suarez having the LF role now that Suarez is much fitter and sharper but Valverde will pull some crazy formation like 4231 obviously to accomodate Suarez, Coutinho and Iniesta looks really good on paper but in reality it's a tactical mess.

Look at the 4231 when Suarez plays directly in front of Messi, Suarez is completely isolated at the front and look at how Messi is pushed all the way to the back by the 2 rows of defence. Messi NEEDS to be in more advanced positions and it is more predictable for the opponents to completely isolate the fixed striker and just make it absolutely compact for Messi to even be able to penetrate their defence. Basically the whole Alaves team standing in between Messi and Suarez.

And I just disagreed with ur whole post saying Messi cant play as a false 9 when he literally was a false 9 against Juventus and Suarez wasnt playing as a lone striker in front of him but somewhat an RF in a 433 setup.

Any game will suffer with Messi having a bad day because he has always been the most creative player in the final third whether or not Suarez is playing in front of him, but it will be worse and rendered useless if he gets dropped too deep because of 4231 with a striker upfront.

Right now, 433 is the best, followed by a 442 but not sure how long Suarez can keep up with being a RW and RF but to answer ur question, no, Messi doesnt work with a striker upfront especially with heavy possession style unless he plays as a RW in Lucho's system.

 

[FCBfan22]

...but not sure how long Suarez can keep up with being a RW and RF but to answer ur question...

Suarez doesn't play RW or RF (unless when he switches sides). He is mostly LST/LW hybrid.

 

[henias]

Suarez doesn't play RW or RF (unless when he switches sides). He is mostly LST/LW hybrid.

Sorry typo lol.

 

[dakt]

Look at the 4231 when Suarez plays directly in front of Messi, Suarez is completely isolated at the front and look at how Messi is pushed all the way to the back by the 2 rows of defence..

I don't see the problem...

 

[Horatio]

lol

 

[MessiCam]

You showed me charts where Suarez is the most advanced player on the pitch

Messi is definitely not a false 9 when Suarez plays.

I don't know why I'm doing this because it appears you've made your mind up about this (You mistakenly assume that the "9" is the most advanced player on the pitch irrespective of where he plays.) but I'm going to any way.

NB! Apologies in advance if this is a long [MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] like post.

The "9" got it's designation from the old "W" formation. It would look something like this... (I'm going to use current Barcelona players because it perfectly illustrates what would in all likelihood happen if all attacking players were played simultaneously.

Dembele----Suarez------Messi
---Coutinho----------Iniesta---

The positioning of the players form a "W" with Suarez as the "9". The CF (Centre Forward) has subsequently, colloquially, become known as the "9".

For illustration purposes I'm going to use a 4-3-3 to demonstrate the foolhardiness of your argument.

Prior to that famous 6-2 Real Madrid game Barcelona lined up like this;

Henry-------Eto'o-------Messi

Here you see a traditional 4-3-3 with a dedicated Centre Forward (Eto'o). We'll come back to this later!

PSG currently line up like this;

Neymar/Di Maria-----Cavani-----Mbappe/Di Maria

Again Cavani is clearly the Centre Forward.

Manchester City line up like this;

Sane-----Aguero/G Jesus-----Sterling/B Silva

There is once again a clear Centre Forward in either Aguero or G Jesus.

Now back to the now famous 6-2 Madrid game. At some stage during the game, Guardiola gave the instruction for Eto'o and Messi to switch positions and the players positions looked like this;

Henry------Messi-------Eto'o

Who is the Centre Forward in the above example? The answer is nobody, because even though you have a traditional Centre Forward on the pitch he is not playing as one . He has now taken up a position to the right of where he should be playing (Inside Forward - In the final third when players move freely he will obviously take up various positions in the box) and as such the system has gone from a traditional 4-3-3 to that of a 4-3-3 False 9 (a strikerless system) because Messi drops deep to find space for himself and create space for Henry and Eto'o.

Move on a few years and this is how Barcelona lines up;

Villa------Messi------Pedro; Or

Pedro------Messi------Villa; Or

Sanchez------Messi------Pedro

Again, in the Villa expamples there is a traditional Centre Forward on the pitch but his role is that of an Inside Forward. It doesn't matter who the most advanced player is because the system is strikerless and that's why I included passmaps of 2011 and 2012 to show you.

Currently when Dembele plays, and this happens only when he plays, a hybrid 4-3-3 False 9 is employed and I've previously included the players average positions to show you that Messi is basically acting as a False 9 without the title because you're of the opinion that he can't play the role any longer. I vehemently disagree because compared to recent seasons he is influencing games significantly more from his central position.

But anyway, the initial argument was not about playing Messi as a False 9. The argument was and still is that a double pivot with 2 of Iniesta, Coutinho and Dembele is reckless if both Messi and Suarez play. Not to mention that a double pivot is not conducive to midfield dominance. As a consequence of Dembele's injury Valverde could get away with it because he flooded the midfield with 2 workhorses alongside Iniesta and Busquets and in some instances played 3 workhorses alongside Busquets. Now with Coutinho's arrival and Dembele about a week away from fitness he won't be able to do that any longer, unless he is going to put 225M on the bench.

People on here are of the opinion that we don't have the players to play a 4-3-3 but truth of the matter is that we don't have the players to play a double pivot unless you drop both Coutinho and Dembele or one of Messi and Suarez.

And then there are people clamouring for this Griezmann signing. Go figure.

 

[MessiCam]

His last great CL campaign was at RW.

No arguments here.

There is no way the team should go back to false nine and wide players.

So why have Coutinho and Dembele been signed?

Messi should play as he does now with more or less a free role and Suarez occupying the CBs a lot of the time.

Suarez is not occupying the Centre Backs a lot of the time. He is occupying the Right Full Back most of the time while Messi has basically taken on the role of a False 9 without the title per sé because Dembele has been injured and the other wide men have for the most part been atrocious.



Suarez heat map for the season. This is not Centre Forward behaviour... This is classic left inside forward behaviour!



Here is Alexis Sanchez' (played as left inside forward for Arsenal) heat map as a comparison.



And here is Messi's. Typical False 9 behaviour...

With Coutinho, Dembele, Iniesta, Suarez and Messi I don't see how Valverde finds balance without dropping one of Suarez and Messi.

 

[Stoichkov1]

I don't know why I'm doing this because it appears you've made your mind up about this (You mistakenly assume that the "9" is the most advanced player on the pitch irrespective of where he plays.) but I'm going to any way.

NB! Apologies in advance if this is a long [MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] like post.

The "9" got it's designation from the old "W" formation. It would look something like this... (I'm going to use current Barcelona players because it perfectly illustrates what would in all likelihood happen if all attacking players were played simultaneously.

Dembele----Suarez------Messi
---Coutinho----------Iniesta---

The positioning of the players form a "W" with Suarez as the "9". The CF (Centre Forward) has subsequently, colloquially, become known as the "9".

For illustration purposes I'm going to use a 4-3-3 to demonstrate the foolhardiness of your argument.

Prior to that famous 6-2 Real Madrid game Barcelona lined up like this;

Henry-------Eto'o-------Messi

Here you see a traditional 4-3-3 with a dedicated Centre Forward (Eto'o). We'll come back to this later!

PSG currently line up like this;

Neymar/Di Maria-----Cavani-----Mbappe/Di Maria

Again Cavani is clearly the Centre Forward.

Manchester City line up like this;

Sane-----Aguero/G Jesus-----Sterling/B Silva

There is once again a clear Centre Forward in either Aguero or G Jesus.

Now back to the now famous 6-2 Madrid game. At some stage during the game, Guardiola gave the instruction for Eto'o and Messi to switch positions and the players positions looked like this;

Henry------Messi-------Eto'o

Who is the Centre Forward in the above example? The answer is nobody, because even though you have a traditional Centre Forward on the pitch he is not playing as one . He has now taken up a position to the right of where he should be playing (Inside Forward - In the final third when players move freely he will obviously take up various positions in the box) and as such the system has gone from a traditional 4-3-3 to that of a 4-3-3 False 9 (a strikerless system) because Messi drops deep to find space for himself and create space for Henry and Eto'o.

Move on a few years and this is how Barcelona lines up;

Villa------Messi------Pedro; Or

Pedro------Messi------Villa; Or

Sanchez------Messi------Pedro

Again, in the Villa expamples there is a traditional Centre Forward on the pitch but his role is that of an Inside Forward. It doesn't matter who the most advanced player is because the system is strikerless and that's why I included passmaps of 2011 and 2012 to show you.

Currently when Dembele plays, and this happens only when he plays, a hybrid 4-3-3 False 9 is employed and I've previously included the players average positions to show you that Messi is basically acting as a False 9 without the title because you're of the opinion that he can't play the role any longer. I vehemently disagree because compared to recent seasons he is influencing games significantly more from his central position.

But anyway, the initial argument was not about playing Messi as a False 9. The argument was and still is that a double pivot with 2 of Iniesta, Coutinho and Dembele is reckless if both Messi and Suarez play. Not to mention that a double pivot is not conducive to midfield dominance. As a consequence of Dembele's injury Valverde could get away with it because he flooded the midfield with 2 workhorses alongside Iniesta and Busquets and in some instances played 3 workhorses alongside Busquets. Now with Coutinho's arrival and Dembele about a week away from fitness he won't be able to do that any longer, unless he is going to put 225M on the bench.

People on here are of the opinion that we don't have the players to play a 4-3-3 but truth of the matter is that we don't have the players to play a double pivot unless you drop both Coutinho and Dembele or one of Messi and Suarez.

And then there are people clamouring for this Griezmann signing. Go figure.

I already know what a false 9 is

But at the moment Messi isn't playing as a false 9 at all since Suarez is not on the wing but in the centre making runs behind the defenders like a typical striker

 

[MessiCam]

I already know what a false 9 is

But at the moment Messi isn't playing as a false 9 at all since Suarez is not on the wing but in the centre making runs behind the defenders like a typical striker

I disagree. He may not have the title of False 9 but he is very much acting like one because when in possession the right midfielder whether that be Paulinho or Vidal (in Dembele's absence) takes up the advanced RW role.

Have a look at my reply to Jamdav and you'll see Suarez' behaviour over the course of the season. He is not playing like a Centre Forward but rather a Left Inside Forward.

 

[BBZ8800]

Right now, 433 is the best, followed by a 442 but not sure how long Suarez can keep up with being a RW and RF but to answer ur question, no, Messi doesnt work with a striker upfront especially with heavy possession style unless he plays as a RW in Lucho's system.

I want to kill myself whenever I read that (our version of) 433 is still the best... in 2018.

So why have Coutinho and Dembele been signed?

Panic buys.
To please the fans after Neymar leaving.
In order to not get sacked (Barto) because of bad results, Neymar leaving and angry fans.
Because RM won 3 CLs in the last 4 years.

Also, in one post you mentioned how Lucho switched to 343 because of Messi-Suarez problem.
Imo, Lucho switched to a 4men midfield because 433 sucked lately.
Teams figured out how to neutralize it. We struggled a lot with it.
And too often our 3 (short, old, slow, whatever) midfielders were outplayed in the middle by any decent opponent, unlike in 2009-2011.

Last season we actually finally played well in 343, except that our 3men defense sucked.
EV solved that problem with adding an extra defender (343 to 442) and losing 1 attacker.
The result: we concede less, we have a strong midfield, and we score the same as in 433 or in 3men attacking formations.

So what is the solution for our problems of having too many attacking players who need to play?
1. rotate them
2. and bench/rotate 1-2 out of 3 Iniesta, Coutinho, Dembele

Also, some of you want to drop Suarez, who can actually score and then rely on false 9 Messi, a midfielder Coutinho and Dembele who is our worst attacker in terms of finishing in the last 10 years.

 

[Ousmane Dembélé]

Dembele who is our worst attacker in terms of finishing in the last 10 years.

The rest of your post was actually somewhat reasonable and I understood where you where coming from, then you had to drop a last sentence so egregious that it invalidated the rest of you opinion.

 

[DonAK]

BBZ, how much have you watched Dembele play?

He's not a good finisher though for sure, but worst finisher in our last 10 years? You sure you're in a position to make that point if you've seen him play less than five times?

We've had some pretty bad finishers during that time.

 

[Blaugrana Bull]

He made up his mind about Dembele and will push his agenda from now on. Simple as that.

 

[Trickykid]

Yeah, it's a shame. I've grown to appreciate most of BBZ's posts - especially so after he overcame his depressed RM is the best team ever and we're going to face years upon years of doom-state - but his blind, stubborn hatred towards certain players makes a lot of his otherwise well thought out arguments more or less devoid of reason. I mean, at least with Nerman he had lots of evidence to back up his relentless shit flinging. With Dembélé, though, not much. At least not yet.

 

[MessiCam]

I want to kill myself whenever I read that (our version of) 433 is still the best... in 2018.



Panic buys.
To please the fans after Neymar leaving.
In order to not get sacked (Barto) because of bad results, Neymar leaving and angry fans.
Because RM won 3 CLs in the last 4 years.

Also, in one post you mentioned how Lucho switched to 343 because of Messi-Suarez problem.
Imo, Lucho switched to a 4men midfield because 433 sucked lately.
Teams figured out how to neutralize it. We struggled a lot with it.
And too often our 3 (short, old, slow, whatever) midfielders were outplayed in the middle by any decent opponent, unlike in 2009-2011.

Last season we actually finally played well in 343, except that our 3men defense sucked.
EV solved that problem with adding an extra defender (343 to 442) and losing 1 attacker.
The result: we concede less, we have a strong midfield, and we score the same as in 433 or in 3men attacking formations.

So what is the solution for our problems of having too many attacking players who need to play?
1. rotate them
2. and bench/rotate 1-2 out of 3 Iniesta, Coutinho, Dembele

Also, some of you want to drop Suarez, who can actually score and then rely on false 9 Messi, a midfielder Coutinho and Dembele who is our worst attacker in terms of finishing in the last 10 years.

Lol... No sir. Lucho switched to a 3-4-3 diamond (3-3-1-3) because Messi on the wing was a liability. The change was all about getting both Messi and Suarez in a central position.

The problem was never the 3 man midfield as you keep on mentioning because it remained the same... Iniesta - Busquets - Rakitic with Messi playing with the front 3... Neymar - Suarez - Rafinha and himself right behind Suarez.

The problem was Messi dragging a midfielder (Rakitic) wide to cover for him in a 4-3-3 leaving only 2 central midfielders. And here you want us to play with 2 central midfielders again so we can get hammered on the counter like against Alaves.

I thought you would have known this.

And Dembele is not a bad finisher. For Rennes he scored 12 and assisted 5 in 22 starts at 19 years of age. At Dortmund he took on a more creative role. But continue your agenda against wide players.