Manchester City

JamDav1982

Senior Member
Juve and Real have been the driving forces for a breakaway european league, if they can get a PL club on board it becomes more likely not less.

There is absolutely zero chance Juve and Real want a super league where teams like City can spend what they like.

Real have been pressuring UEFA to clamp down on FFP.

UEFA doing this makes it less likely as makes keeps the bigger clubs on side.

City would want that already so this makes no difference on having another PL on side.
 

Newcomer

New member
There is absolutely zero chance Juve and Real want a super league where teams like City can spend what they like.

Real have been pressuring UEFA to clamp down on FFP.

UEFA doing this makes it less likely as makes keeps the bigger clubs on side.

City would want that already so this makes no difference on having another PL on side.

Agree with you.

The big clubs are the ones who pushed for FFP in its current form. Platini, originally, would have made something like the financial instance in France which takes into account debt and not deficit. Big clubs that have been running huge debt from their previous "financial doping" or "investment" made sure it would focus on the latter rather than the former element.

Big clubs are scaring UEFA when they talk about a breakaway league in order to get what they want. It is working. Big clubs and leagues got more direct CL spots and get even more money just because of their past history with the money distributed according to a coefficient. All the different talks about changes in 2024 are about more games between big teams for them to make more money.

Big clubs are extatic about those City news. One less rival to compete with. One of the new riches rivals they couldn't compete with if not for FFP.

The only risk is if City goes into a civil court and manage to torpedo the whole FFP thing. In that case, UEFA will be fucked and will have to pay a lot of damage and rich owners will be able to invest again however they want.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
Agree with you.

The big clubs are the ones who pushed for FFP in its current form. Platini, originally, would have made something like the financial instance in France which takes into account debt and not deficit. Big clubs that have been running huge debt from their previous "financial doping" or "investment" made sure it would focus on the latter rather than the former element.

Big clubs are scaring UEFA when they talk about a breakaway league in order to get what they want. It is working. Big clubs and leagues got more direct CL spots and get even more money just because of their past history with the money distributed according to a coefficient. All the different talks about changes in 2024 are about more games between big teams for them to make more money.

Big clubs are extatic about those City news. One less rival to compete with. One of the new riches rivals they couldn't compete with if not for FFP.

The only risk is if City goes into a civil court and manage to torpedo the whole FFP thing. In that case, UEFA will be fucked and will have to pay a lot of damage and rich owners will be able to invest again however they want.

City wont win anything in court that can force UEFAs hand on banishing FFP.

The clubs all signed up to the rules and no one is forcing these clubs to play in UEFA competition.
 

Newcomer

New member
City wont win anything in court that can force UEFAs hand on banishing FFP.

The clubs all signed up to the rules and no one is forcing these clubs to play in UEFA competition.

UEFA got done in court before with the Bosman ruling. Even if they do their own rules, you can always argue that it is not complying with the law. When you think about it, without FFP, City wouldn't have to do all those schemes for an owner to legally invest in its property.

I don't know how it will end but City has made it clear they'll try everything and anything to make this sanction vanish.

Bosman ruling :

Union Royale Belge des Sociétés de Football Association ASBL v Jean-Marc Bosman (1995) C-415/93 (known as the Bosman ruling)[1] is a 1995 European Court of Justice decision concerning freedom of movement for workers, freedom of association, and direct effect of article 39[2] (now article 45 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union) of the TEC. The case was an important decision on the free movement of labour and had a profound effect on the transfers of footballers within the European Union (EU).

The decision banned restrictions on foreign EU players within national leagues and allowed players in the EU to move to another club at the end of a contract without a transfer fee being paid.
 
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JamDav1982

Senior Member
UEFA got done in court before with the Bosman ruling. Even if they do their own rules, you can always argue that it is not complying with the law.

I don't know how it will end but City has made it clear they'll try everything and anything to make this sanction vanish.

Bosman ruling is completely different.

FFP is to do with the rules of a competition that all clubs signed up to.

There has been next to no circumstances of CAS over ruling that.

Why would likes of PSG and City wait for sanctions if thought could get round it through CAS? They wouldnt.
 

Newcomer

New member
Bosman ruling is completely different.

FFP is to do with the rules of a competition that all clubs signed up to.

There has been next to no circumstances of CAS over ruling that.

Why would likes of PSG and City wait for sanctions if thought could get round it through CAS? They wouldnt.

You seem certain about the fact it is completely different. At the time, UEFA was adamant they were right too, until they lost with the Bosman ruling.

You cannot know until it has been in court.

And i agree with you about CAS. I don't think they'll overrule. They often agree with UEFA except if UEFA fucked up their own procedures (PSG case). However, City owners will not accept the decision and go to civil court.
Just look at their official statement :

Simply put, this is a case initiated by UEFA, prosecuted by UEFA and judged by UEFA. With this prejudicial process now over, the Club will pursue an impartial judgment as quickly as possible and will therefore, in the first instance, commence proceedings with the Court of Arbitration for Sport at the earliest opportunity.

They clearly say that they will go to CAS in the first instance, which means they consider other instances should the first fail.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
You seem certain about the fact it is completely different. At the time, UEFA was adamant they were right too, until they lost with the Bosman ruling.

You cannot know until it has been in court.

And i agree with you about CAS. I don't think they'll overrule. They often agree with UEFA except if UEFA fucked up their own procedures (PSG case). However, City owners will not accept the decision and go to civil court.
Just look at their official statement :

Simply put, this is a case initiated by UEFA, prosecuted by UEFA and judged by UEFA. With this prejudicial process now over, the Club will pursue an impartial judgment as quickly as possible and will therefore, in the first instance, commence proceedings with the Court of Arbitration for Sport at the earliest opportunity.

They clearly say that they will go to CAS in the first instance, which means they consider other instances should the first fail.

CAS on the PSG case only referred to the UEFA rules in place and stated that investigation could not be reopened as too long had passed.

Bosman is different and is in relation to the movement of individual players as is the Webster ruling etc.

City will go to CAS to try to argue that the investigation broke rules or that the findings were incorrect not that FFP is illegal.

FFP wont be removed in court no matter how much City and PSG dream of that.
 

Newcomer

New member
CAS on the PSG case only referred to the UEFA rules in place and stated that investigation could not be reopened as too long had passed.(1)

Bosman is different and is in relation to the movement of individual players as is the Webster ruling etc. (2)

City will go to CAS to try to argue that the investigation broke rules or that the findings were incorrect not that FFP is illegal.(3)

FFP wont be removed in court no matter how much City and PSG dream of that.(4)

(1)This is what i said : And i agree with you about CAS. I don't think they'll overrule. They often agree with UEFA except if UEFA fucked up their own procedures (PSG case). We are agreeing here.
(2)Yeah, it is in relation of the movement of individual players. City, however, has attacked UEFA in CAS for thier handling od the investigation : https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/51483162
City is arguing UEFA FFP bodies are not fit to judge and are not impartial and sought damages from UEFA ! They'll challenge even the legality of FFP if the need to. It is evident City is not taking the hit and is at war with UEFA. You cannot know the results of the case in the court.
(3) As said previously, i think CAS almost always sides with UEFA unless they fucked up their own procedures. So they'll prolly side with UEFA here and City will search another court to undo the ruling.
(4)As far as PSG is concerned, we are good. The cash of sponsors is flowing more than ever. Our kits are some of the best selling in France and worldwide. We have two of the most valuable players in our side. In fact, FFP has even made us king of France for ever. Monaco was a credible opponent until FFP crushed their Russian oligarch dream. Mbappé would still prolly playing there with Fabinho, Bernardo Silva and co. OM had big ambitions and they are already fucked by FFP. The problem of PSG is more on the pitch that off the pitch (FFP).
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
(1)This is what i said : And i agree with you about CAS. I don't think they'll overrule. They often agree with UEFA except if UEFA fucked up their own procedures (PSG case). We are agreeing here.
(2)Yeah, it is in relation of the movement of individual players. City, however, has attacked UEFA in CAS for thier handling od the investigation : https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/51483162
City is arguing UEFA FFP bodies are not fit to judge and are not impartial and sought damages from UEFA ! They'll challenge even the legality of FFP if the need to. It is evident City is not taking the hit and is at war with UEFA. You cannot know the results of the case in the court.
(3) As said previously, i think CAS almost always sides with UEFA unless they fucked up their own procedures. So they'll prolly side with UEFA here and City will search another court to undo the ruling.
(4)As far as PSG is concerned, we are good. The cash of sponsors is flowing more than ever. Our kits are some of the best selling in France and worldwide. We have two of the most valuable players in our side. In fact, FFP has even made us king of France for ever. Monaco was a credible opponent until FFP crushed their Russian oligarch dream. Mbappé would still prolly playing there with Fabinho, Bernardo Silva and co. OM had big ambitions and they are already fucked by FFP. The problem of PSG is more on the pitch that off the pitch (FFP).

City cant challenge the validity of FFP as they signed up to it.

They can argue rules not applied correctly or investigation unfair/biased and may get somewhere with that but if try to eridicate FFP onto a complete loser.
 

Newcomer

New member
City cant challenge the validity of FFP as they signed up to it.

They can argue rules not applied correctly or investigation unfair/biased and may get somewhere with that but if try to eridicate FFP onto a complete loser.
This is an article from 1 year ago about the possibility of challenging FFP legality. As you can see, no one knows exactly what will be the result. This is why clubs and UEFA usually find an agreement that satisfy all parties. I can't say City would win or City will win and the experts can't either.

Football Leaks: Could Man City & PSG overturn FFP in court?

Goal speaks to sports law experts and examines the relevant precedents to try to determine whether UEFA's financial regulations could be quashed

It has been widely argued that clubs like Manchester City and Paris Saint-Germain could have taken UEFA to court when they were deemed to have breached Financial Fair Play regulations in 2014, and that a future legal challenge could still be on the cards.

Supporters and legal scholars alike insist that UEFA could be defeated, on the grounds that its regulations restrict competition.

However, while it could be proven that that is indeed the case, it may not be enough for a successful legal challenge.

Goal speaks to relevant experts and cites several precedents to assess whether clubs, or other parties, could have FFP scrapped.
THE CASE AGAINST FFP

Several legal scholars have argued that UEFA's Financial Fair Play regulations could be found to be illegal if challenged in a court of law. In a paper published in Economic Policy in 2014, Thomas Peeters and Stefan Szymanski write that FFP could restrict "competition, because it protects the traditional big market teams from challenges by clubs who are backed by an outside investor."

Simon Chadwick, Professor of Sports Enterprise at Salford University, outlines the case against FFP.

"FFP emerged as a solution for moderating the behaviour of bigger clubs," he tells Goal .

"However, it was simply a voluntary agreement reached between members of an industry almost a decade ago.

"Over that decade, the world has changed considerably, and some clubs may feel that FFP is no longer acceptable to them, especially those clubs whose owners were not party to the original agreement that was reached.

"As such, all it would take is for one club to say 'we don't agree, we won't comply', and FFP could collapse in its current form. Indeed, under European Union law such clubs would find themselves in a strong position, as in other industries there are no such examples of financial performance being regulated in the same way by an external body.

"And this is the very essence of the challenge now facing European football. Nobody tells IKEA, BMW or Air France how much they can spend, how much they can borrow and how much their staff costs should be. Instead, this is dictated by markets, which is what some big European football clubs will point to as a basis for defending their actions."
SO COULD CLUBS CHALLENGE FFP IN COURT?

Goal asked Dr Rob Wilson, an expert in the finance, economics and governance of professional team sports, whether clubs like City and PSG could feasibly challenge FFP through the courts: "Yes they can is the answer to that question," he says.

"I think both Man City and PSG, when they originally subscribed to the regulations, could have said: 'We’re going to challenge the legality of these regulations through the European Court'. They chose not to do that for one reason or another, so I think you could see that.

"I think what we will find now is if the [Football Leaks] allegations are proven and the evidence formally comes to light then what we’ll see is UEFA having to take a much stronger position on the sanction, but then you will also see Man City and PSG challenge the legality of Financial Fair Play at its very core."
WHY?

Challengers could argue that FFP regulations breach European competition law because they distort competition, a contravention of Article 101, or that UEFA is abusing a dominant position, a contravention of Article 102.

Regarding the distortion of competition, Dr Borja Garcia, a specialist in European law, tells Goal : "If somebody wants to invest more money, those rules don’t allow that. So that could be the basis of a legal challenge."

Dr Ben van Rompuy, who recently gave expert testimony in support of AC Milan as the Italian club challenged UEFA at the Court of Arbitration for Sport this summer, tells Goal that the application of FFP regulations, rather than the regulations themselves, could be challenged.

"There is room to argue that an individually imposed decision is disproportional or discriminatory in comparison to decisions imposed on other clubs, and hence the application of the rules violates competition law."
HOW?

There are three possible avenues via the courts; a challenge to the European Commission (the EU), to a national court, or to a national competition authority, which are responsible for preventing anti-competitive practices.

"I highly doubt that the European Commission would take the case," Dr Van Rompuy warns. "They made their position quite clear and I think if a new complaint were to arrive, they’ll find another reason to reject it.

"The best bet for a club would be to go to the national court."

Any clubs that have been hit with sanctions for breaching FFP can appeal to CAS.
PREVIOUS CHALLENGES

In a case study published in The International Sports Law Journal , Christopher Flanagan has outlined challenges by Daniel Striani, a Belgian agent, and Turkish club Galatasaray.

Both were unsuccessful.

In 2013, Striani took his case to the European Commission , arguing that certain FFP regulations were in breach of EU competition law, and that they prohibit EU fundamentals such as the movement of people, capital and services.

Among Striani's arguments were that FFP "inhibits the transfer market by causing a reduction in the volume of transfers, impinging on the quantum of transfer fees, and limiting the number of players clubs will register" and that it has "a deflationary effect on players’ salaries".

Striani's case was backed by Manchester City and Paris Saint-Germain fan groups, as well as the ‘Association of Angry Fans against Financial Fair Play’, but the European Commission rejected the complaint as it "expressed doubts as to the legitimate interests" of the agent, because "the UEFA rule is primarily aimed at clubs and penalises agents indirectly." It also ruled that the Brussells court at which he had lodged the same complaint was well placed to hear the case.

The only challenge to be lodged with the European Commission and Court of Justice, then, was not even heard, though the Brussels court found via a preliminary investigation that clubs would potentially be able to have a case heard in a national court, as they are directly affected by FFP - unlike agents and supporters.

Galatasaray took their case to the Court of Arbitration for Sport after being banned from European competition by UEFA in 2016 for failing FFP. The Turkish club argued that FFP rules (specifically the requirement for clubs to break even) were in breach of European competition law under Articles 101 and 102, and, as Striani did, that they restricted EU fundamental freedoms.

According to case documentation, UEFA, as it would likely do in the face of a new challenge, argued that the break even requirements "are prudential rules necessary for the proper functioning of football clubs". Crucially, in a legal sense, they also argued that the regulations have a legitimate objective. "Any restriction [of competition] they may cause pursues legitimate governance objectives and is proportionate to their achievement’."

The CAS panel found that FFP did not prevent, restrict or distort competition as its objective.

Regarding Article 102 - a claim that UEFA abused a dominant position - CAS found that Galatasaray only moved to establish that UEFA was in a dominant position, not that it abused it.

Ultimately, the CAS panel ruled that FFP was not in contravention of EU law, and, according to Flanagan's case study, "agreed with UEFA that rather than distorting competition, FFP ensures that the market is not distorted by clubs over-spending."

Flanagan summarises CAS's finding: "FFP, therefore, prevents, rather than causes, an anti-competitive effect in the market."

Earlier this year, however, AC Milan won reinstatement to the Europa League after a challenge at CAS by arguing that the application of FFP regulations, rather than the rules themselves, were in violation of European competition law. In this specific example, CAS ruled that the decision to ban Milan from European football was disproportionate.
WOULD A NEW CHALLENGE BE SUCCESSFUL?

Stephen Weatherill, a professor of European law at Oxford University, surmises in a 2013 submission to the Soccernomics website: "FFP is legally fragile - it is certainly vulnerable to attack under EU law. But it is not automatically unlawful - there is room under EU law to defend it."

Dr Garcia tells Goal : "FFP at least tries to be legal. It was designed with European competition law in mind, and UEFA tried to design FFP around it."

He also explains that clubs could come unstuck even if they can prove that UEFA's FFP regulations are anti-competitive.

"While stems such as FFP may indeed restrict competition, and may be illegal, if you can find an objective justification for them, they might be legal. And according to the case law of the European Court of Justice, maintaining competitive balance is a legitimate objective."

CAS ruled in UEFA's favour when FFP was challenged by Galatasaray, and a fresh challenge would be unlikely to succeed, according to Dr Van Rompuy.

"That probably will not work because CAS will refer to Galatasaray, as they have already found that these [FFP] rules as such are compatible [with EU competition law]," he says.

There would, however, be the potential for a sanctioned club to argue in CAS that the sanctions are disproportional or discriminatory, as Milan did this year. That would depend on the specific sanctions handed out.

The European Commission is yet to make any rulings, given it threw out the Striani case, and Dr Van Rompuy believes it would decide not to hear any challenges.

And Dr Garcia also points out that, politically at least, the Commission has already backed FFP, via a press release in 2012.

"Some time ago the Commission said that they politically endorse FFP. Of course that’s not a legal endorsement, and the same happened with Bosman; years before Bosman the Commission said ‘We agree with this new UEFA scheme’, only for the the Court of Justice to say that’s not your business. It’s a political call but the Commission has more or less said that FFP is ok."

Overall, Dr Garcia says it is impossible to know for sure whether a legal challenge against FFP would be successful, but he believes UEFA is confident that it would see off any disgruntled parties.
Article continues below

"Some legal scholars think [a challenge] would be successful. I think UEFA is pretty sure it won’t be successful because of the way European law has been applied to sport has changed over time. We are not in [the] Bosman [era], we are not in 1995. I’m pretty sure UEFA's legal department is relatively confident that any challenge will not be successful.

"We will never have an answer to that until a case goes not just to the Commission but then to the European Court of Justice.

"But by reading what people say and my knowledge of European law, I actually think there are more possibilities of a legal challenge under European competition law to be unsuccessful than there are to be successful."
 

Newcomer

New member
Have read enough on it and heard enough that Europe wont challenge it as clubs sign up to the rules.

This is your belief. You can never be sure before there is an actual ruling.

All i'm saying is City behaviour and statement is pointing to the fact they'll try anything. All other clubs cooperated with UEFA until the sanction/verdict came out. City is the only one to seek damages before the sanction was out. They are visibly very prone to take all legal solutions at their disposal.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
This is your belief. You can never be sure before there is an actual ruling.

All i'm saying is City behaviour and statement is pointing to the fact they'll try anything. All other clubs cooperated with UEFA until the sanction/verdict came out. City is the only one to seek damages before the sanction was out. They are visibly very prone to take all legal solutions at their disposal.

If City dont challenge the whole validity of FFP I think that answers the question. Lets wait and see.
 

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