Mateo Kovačić

[Arfaraza]

We had only one successful season with Ronnie and Etoo (in CL terms).
So, it wasn't a start of an era, but more like a random season when one out of top 4-5 teams win a CL.

The same as sometimes Man. Utd, Bayern, Chelsea, Juve or any (top) team eventually wins a CL once in 10-20 years.

Comparison Barca vs Argentina, well.
Barca (without Messi) was always one out of 4-5 top teams who are equal.
-- in numbers, let's say it this way:
-- strength of Barca without Messi=99%
-- strength of Real without Messi=99%
-- strength of Bayern without Messi=99%
-- strength of Chelsea without Messi=90%
= Barca with Messi=150%

Now, in normal terms, each of these teams have equal chances.
So, sometimes Barca will win a CL, sometimes Real, sometimes Bayern, sometimes a team live Liverpool, Arsenal, Man. Utd, Porto etc.

But when you get a player like Messi on a lottery and when you add him to a team which is already EQUALLY as strong as any top 4-5 team in the world, well, then you get Barca from the last 10 years with trebles, sixtuples, 120 goals scored per Season, pure magic on the field, and 3-4-5 CL titles in 10 years.

Without Messi, I am repeating, we will just be a random top team who will be 50:50 against any random top opponent.
We won't be favorites against any bigger team.

Now, Argentina.
The difference between Barca without Messi and Argentina without Messi is that Argentina without Messi is not in top 4-5 teams in the world.
And Argentina WITHOUT Messi is surely not as equally as strong as Spain, Italy, Brasil or other top teams from the last decade.

So, you see, when you add Messi to already world class Barca=you get a team out of this world.
When you add Messi to pretty average Argentina's team=you get a world class team.

But in numbers:
-- Spain 99%
-- Germany 99%
-- Italy 95%
-- Brasil 90%
-- Argentina without Messi 70-80%

-- so, you see, when you add Messi to that team, Argentina is WITH Messi equally as strong as other top teams, or honestly, STILL WEAKER than other teams.

So, someone could reply now: so, you see that one player alone can't do wonders (Messi in Argentina).
True, to some extent.

But Messi, on a club level, is the only player in a recent football's history, who was able to turn an already world class club (per-Messi Barca) into a team out of this world.
My point is, there isn't OTHER single player in the world whom we can buy and for whom we could say: now with this guy, we will be 2 levels stronger than any opponent (I am talking about era before Messi or after Messi).
So, when Messi will be gone, we won't be able to say: buy Neymar or Hazard and you will be the best team in a world by far.
Lol, that won't happen ever again.
Some players will strengthen our team, but none player ever will strengthen our team as much as Messi did.

Again, I am willing to bet with anyone what will happen in 3-4-5 years when Messi will be gone.

Imo, people are giving too much credit to La Masia, our board etc.
About La Masia, I replied already, if we didn't have Messi, who knows if Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol and other guys would won any other CL than a 2006's title.
You will say that Messi was lucky to play with golden-La Masia generation. True, to some extent, everything clicked perfectly.

But also, if we hadn't Messi, then nobody would hail our golden La Masia's generation.
They would have 1 CL title, 2-3 La Liga titles, and zero trebles, sextuples etc.



Ok, but.
If today we have:
= Messi+good work by the board+golden La Masia's generation=current team
But, imo, if you remove some of the factors from the maths, like:
= good board+La Masia but WITHOUT Messi=we would be a crap
= Messi+good board but WITHOUT La Masia=we wouldn't be as good as today, but we would still won 2-3 CL titles in 10 years
= Messi+La Masia WITHOUT a good board=we wouldn't be as good as today, but we would again won at least 2-3 CL titles in 10 years on the wings from a pure quality from Messi and La Masia players

So, yes, you need all factors to create a team like the current Barca.
But still, imo, by far the most important factor was Messi.

Anyway, for those who don't believe, in 4 years, we will still have a good board, and good La Masia, Neymar and other guys, but you will see that it won't matter too much when Messi will be gone.



Answered above.
Barca without Messi was already EQUALLY as strong as any other top team.
So, Messi was just an insane bonus which turned our team into a bunch of (unbeatable) aliens.

Argentina is a joke out of a team without Messi.

But again, wait 4 years, and you will see how the world (Barca's world) will look without Messi.
You will have all new Puyols, Xavis and similar new La Masia's boys, plus Neymars, Pogbas and other boys.

You'll see how it will work then...

This

Kovacic will benefit Real's counter attacking style with BBC as his runners. More easy gol for Ronaldo, I guess.

 

[Luftstalag14]

Luft, we might lose a year due to transition, but the thing is a club like Barcelona makes the implementation faster. Rakitic is the perfect example of a relatively young player being implemented right away, to the degree that he has already become an important part in the team. Also, Jordi Alba's case. We bought him and he played right away.

Let's take the players position for position.

GK - Ter Stegen - 23 years old

RB - Aleix Vidal - 25 years old

CB - Pique - 28 years old

CB - Mascherano (!) - 31 years old

LB - Jordi Alba - 26 years old

DM - Busquets - 27 years old

RCM - Rakitic - 27 years old

LCM - Iniesta (!) - 31 years old

LW - Neymar - 23 years old

CF - Suarez - 29 years old

RW - Messi - 28 years old

Most of our team is relatively young. 26-27 years old for most players. That's a young team that will continue to form the core of Barcelona in the next 4 years.

We have two position that we need to replace. One would be perfectly covered for many years with the signing of Pogba. The other one is a problem, because Bartra is a major letdown.

Is that team old? No. The only starters we need to replace in the next two years are Iniesta (Pogba and Arda) and Mascherano.

Take Isco's example. By the time he is ready to play for Real Madrid (if that will happen at all) as a definitive starter in tough matches, he'll be 25. Varane as well probably. He's been with Madrid since 2011, but he still is in the shadow of Pepe - Ramos. Madrid doesn't have a player like Neymar to be absolute world class at 22-23 years old. They have players that COULD BE world class. But as we saw with Ozil, with Higuain, these players don't quite get there. Close, but not quite there.

The only clear young starter they have is James.

Hi serghei, it took me a while to respond to this post of yours, which I largely agree. On paper I think we are fine, our starting XI remain among the best in the world for the next 2 to 3 years. However, I see two problems:

(1) As many people have mentioned, we lack depth. We have to keep praying that our starting XI are healthy and not sustain any injuries, because when they do, we are in big trouble as our bench is really thin and the quality is subpar. What do we do? We either buy quality replacements which are unlikely (again few established players would want to come to sit on the bench, especially given how strong some of our starting XI are), or promote from within La Masia and/or buy some of the best young promising talents and prospects like Real Madrid does, players do not mind playing second fiddle. I think having to train with the first team, despite lacking significant playing time, will benefit these young players in the long run. And it makes it much easier to transition once some of the starting XI players are phasing out. I think this is the current strategy of Real Madrid and Bayern right now.

(2) Let's face it, without Messi we are a different and much worse team. So when Messi finally decides to hang up his boots 4, 5, 6 years later, or when Messi's level drops significantly, it probably will take us a long period of time to come back to the level that we are at today, eg., being one of the top three clubs. What do we do? Do we hope Neymar to replace him? Unlikely. Do we sign the next best young attacker in the horizon? Do we build the team from ground up? I am afraid that by the time Messi retires, the young guns at Real Madrid will go full blasting and we will be suppressed for several seasons if we don't plan early.

I don't have the answers myself.

 

[MaxY]

 

[Stric]

Damn, nice stats. Thanks.

And not to mention that Kovačić played for a significantly inferior team.

 

[serghei]

Hi serghei, it took me a while to respond to this post of yours, which I largely agree. On paper I think we are fine, our starting XI remain among the best in the world for the next 2 to 3 years. However, I see two problems:

(1) As many people have mentioned, we lack depth. We have to keep praying that our starting XI are healthy and not sustain any injuries, because when they do, we are in big trouble as our bench is really thin and the quality is subpar. What do we do? We either buy quality replacements which are unlikely (again few established players would want to come to sit on the bench, especially given how strong some of our starting XI are), or promote from within La Masia and/or buy some of the best young promising talents and prospects like Real Madrid does, players do not mind playing second fiddle. I think having to train with the first team, despite lacking significant playing time, will benefit these young players in the long run. And it makes it much easier to transition once some of the starting XI players are phasing out. I think this is the current strategy of Real Madrid and Bayern right now.

(2) Let's face it, without Messi we are a different and much worse team. So when Messi finally decides to hang up his boots 4, 5, 6 years later, or when Messi's level drops significantly, it probably will take us a long period of time to come back to the level that we are at today, eg., being one of the top three clubs. What do we do? Do we hope Neymar to replace him? Unlikely. Do we sign the next best young attacker in the horizon? Do we build the team from ground up? I am afraid that by the time Messi retires, the young guns at Real Madrid will go full blasting and we will be suppressed for several seasons if we don't plan early.

I don't have the answers myself.

For (1). I agree. We need to buy more talent from outside of La Masia, because, frankly, take Kovacic for example, he's much better than Sergi Robero, and Roberto has for us probably the same role Kovacic will have for RM. Back-up for CM-DM area. The gap in quality between them is too big and not normal for teams like Barcelona and Real (in which differences should be mainly about style and only marginally about quality). We could promote Samper, but Samper is much less experienced and developed than Kovacic. Our team right now is composed of amazing matured players, still on the young(ish) side, like Messi, Rakitic, Alba, Busi, Pique, Suarez (he'll play well until 33 for us without problems), and some young superstars, mostly Neymar and maybe Pogba next summer, Stegen as well. What we lack is players of Isco, Kovacic profile, 21-23 years old with just enough experience to be able to cope well with the pressure of a club like Barca or Real, but not enough maturity to be a clear starter. A player like Isco for example covers the gap between someone like Neymar and someone like Halilovic. Hardly the superstar Neymar is, but much more assured than Halilovic. Not talking about potential, but about current level. If Neymar is a 5 (max for a young player), Isco is a 4, Rafinha is a 3, Halilovic is a 1.5. If we buy Pogba, we will have maybe two 5s and a bunch of 2s. Nothing in between in terms of development (not potential). In another words, Real can play Kovacic in a game at San Mames without their fans being afraid he'll look awful.

(2), I'm gonna get criticized for that, but back in 2004 I started to wonder what would happen after Ronaldinho, and in 2005 Gamper game with Juve, Messi was introduced to us, and 3 years later we had Messi - Eto'o - Henry, and people said that was the best attack ever. Now we have Neymar and Suarez and people say THIS is the best trio ever. Neymar will be here once Messi retires and he already proved he doesn't get scared in front of intense pressure. I have a lot of faith in him.

Without Messi we are a worse team if he is injured or suspended. If he is gone for good, we will be forced to adapt and we will. Of course we will be worse without him, but we can still be winners. We did it without Pep, we're gonna do it without Xavi, and we will do it without Messi - Lionel Messi at least, we're not sure about other Messis.

 

[ThwiX]

Got better stats than Iniesta too. Kovacic>Iniesta.

 

[dakt]

Got better stats than Iniesta too. Kovacic>Iniesta.

Nice try of discrediting Mateo by using Iniesta, but it is true. He's bigger talent than Pogba.

 

[ThwiX]

Nice try of discrediting Mateo by using Iniesta, but it is true. He's bigger talent than Pogba.

Not discrediting anyone. I like Kovacic, but it's clear that Pogba is the bigger talent. Call me biased, but so are you and all the other thousand Croatians on here when it comes to Kovacic.

 

[Neymessi]

Is there a debate going on whos better out of pogba or kovacic?Pogba would be my choice.

 

[BBZ8800]

Is there a debate going on whos better out of pogba or kovacic?Pogba would be my choice.

Pogba is probably a better player in this moment, but we could ask a lot of different questions with more things added into those questions.

1. Who is better in general, Pogba or Kovacic?
2. Who can improve more over time?
But also:
3. Who would be a better fit for Barca's style of play, Kovacic or Pogba?
4. Also, who would be a better choice for Barca, if we take into the account:
a) our style of play
b) the fact that Pogba would cost 80 Millions transfer fee+15 M image right+12 M wages=155 M Euros for 5 years
or Kovacic, who would cost 30 M transfer fee+0 Millions image rights+4 M wages per Season=50 Millions for 5 years

So, in general, most people would probably say that Pogba is better, but the answer on the last question is not that simple (who is better suited for Barca's style, and when you sum all the expenses for a 5 years deal), then, imo, it is very questionable whether the transfer of Pogba (worth 155 Millions) is a better business for Barca, than a 50M deal for Kovacic.

Is Pogba THAT Much better that it is wise and affordable to pay 3x times more money for him?

My answer for the question no4 is surely: Kovacic

 

[dakt]

Not discrediting anyone. I like Kovacic, but it's clear that Pogba is the bigger talent. Call me biased, but so are you and all the other thousand Croatians on here when it comes to Kovacic.

It's not clear. It can be clear in two, three seasons, but one thing for sure... 35 million < 100 million. So at least when talent per buck is in question, he is better.

 

[serghei]

It's not clear. It can be clear in two, three seasons, but one thing for sure... 35 million < 100 million. So at least when talent per buck is in question, he is better.

What about swag per buck? No contest.

 

[zanela]

Not too bothered with this transfer. I'm just glad it has BBZ occupied, leaving him li'l time to shit on all of Barca's youngsters.

 

[Icarium]

What about swag per buck? No contest.

Pogba is a gamble but if he somehow succeeds on sporting level he will become a huge star like neymar (even neymar is not there yet but he seems to be heading there)

 

[serghei]

Pogba is a gamble but if he somehow succeeds on sporting level he will become a huge star like neymar (even neymar is not there yet but he seems to be heading there)

Yea, I think so too. The only think I hate about Pogba is his agent. He's even worse than Neymar Sr.