Mavericky Puig

[vegitot]

Pep and Aragones changed Xavis role (less in how he was positioned, and more in the trust he was given, the players put around him, and the teams style overall). If they didn't arrive, Thiago would probably be seen as the greatest midfielder to come out of La Masia (Iniesta too, magically improved as a 24yo when he got to play together with Xavi full out in that different style)

Xavi was not a DM under Rijkaard, Marquez or Edmilson was. Xavi played together with Deco, who was a totally brilliant player but who played with a slightly lower success%
The talking point was wether Rijkaard could be crazy enough to play Deco, Xavi, Iniesta together or not, sometimes he did (both Iniesta and Xavi played were tried as DM)
Deco was clearly the greatest of the three in terms of reputation, before 2008.

I was obviously an outlier then, in that I rated Xavi as obviously better than Lampard in 2005. Having been very impressed with Toure in 2007, I also immediately understood Busquets was better the first couple of games I saw. I was very suspicious about Rakitic arriving to bring more verticality to the midfield, and I was right to be, even if he played very well for the most part, better than you probably give him credit for. Fabregas was a genious in a way, but too bad to play DM/CM in Barcelona. He was good as a partner to Messi up front, but a bit too slow.

Xavi was Spainish best player in 2005, way before Pep. Again, he didn't play in his favourite position (not a playmaker of the team and also as a DM) until Aragones gave him a playmaker role in the team. Pep followed that. He immediately dominated the whole world. Even before that, he was still very good. Just player like Xavi or a CM role was not appreciated like nowadays.

Iniesta already played god games vs Madrid, Milan, Arsenal in 2006.

Now in 2021, you can say Xavi was better than Lampard in 2005 but i don't know if it is true back in 2005. No edvidence.

 

[vegitot]

Claiming past views on players is largely irrelevant as no one can back up if true or clean making it up anyway.

Doesnt add anything to opinion that Puig is 'top 5 midfielders in world'. He is doing well to be in top 5 midfielders at a club like Barca at moment let alone anything else.

He tried to say Puig is as good as Xavi, just people like you and me don't appreciate him like Xavi back then despite the massive difference between two eras.

Now every role, position in the team are analyzed deeply. We have many stats to show how good player in their position is. It is not like in 2000s anymore.

And Puig doesn't play out of his favourite position like Xavi used to. Heck, even Pedri plays many role in midfield and he is still better than Puig now.

 

[fergus90]

It's just the nature of football, you only gain worldwide recognition when you win major trophies then people jump on the bandwagon mainly brought on by media attention.

Fans of the club may know how great a player is, but unless you're the one scoring goals, the other work can go largely under the radar.

An example, for now, might be Pedri. Most Barca fans and La Liga viewers are waxing lyrical about him at the moment. I could go to Villa Park on a matchday and I bet a good 50% of people have never heard of him even though they watch football every week.

It wasn't that people did or didn't rate Xavi, but until Barca starting winning CL's and Spain winning trophies, no one really paid attention in the media and the flashy brilliance of your Ronaldinho's is what gets the attention.

 

[Windhook]

Puig has giant shoes to fill and it's unrealistic for him to fulfill his potential being constantly under Xavi's giant shadow. Both media and fans are part of this.

I don't remember reading in newspaper or magazines (limited internet back in the day) about Xavi being the next Guardiola or Ivan de la Pena. Probably because the 2000-2003 Barcelona was a mess with brilliant individuals, but no team. There was just this rumour he was flirting with a move to AC Milan.

 

[JamDav1982]

Puig has giant shoes to fill and it's unrealistic for him to fulfill his potential being constantly under Xavi's giant shadow. Both media and fans are part of this.

I don't remember reading in newspaper or magazines (limited internet back in the day) about Xavi being the next Guardiola or Ivan de la Pena. Probably because the 2000-2003 Barcelona was a mess with brilliant individuals, but no team. There was just this rumour he was flirting with a move to AC Milan.

Xavi was put under massive pressure from media/fans with comparisons to Pep and seen as forcing him out the team.

Puig has not had a fraction of that and is very rarely put same level or compared to Xavi in media etc.

 

[Bobo32]

Xavi was Spainish best player in 2005, way before Pep. Again, he didn't play in his favourite position (not a playmaker of the team and also as a DM) until Aragones gave him a playmaker role in the team. Pep followed that. He immediately dominated the whole world. Even before that, he was still very good. Just player like Xavi or a CM role was not appreciated like nowadays.

Iniesta already played god games vs Madrid, Milan, Arsenal in 2006.

Now in 2021, you can say Xavi was better than Lampard in 2005 but i don't know if it is true back in 2005. No edvidence.

lol did you watch the games? Xavi was not a DM under Rijkaard, Rijkaard was applauded for putting him forward, "unlocking" him.
In the NT he was seen with some suspicion IIRC, until the first gold. In Euro 2004 he was in the squad but did not play, Albelda+Baraja were playing instead (don't remember if there was a reason, but they played 4-2-3-1). 2006 with Aragones he played, although many thought Fabregas should've played more instead. 2008 had very much to do with Senna overperforming btw, it was Del Bosques spain that really showed Xavis (or his styles) potential fully.
Iniesta played well in 2003/04 as well.

The "evidence" is as clear as anything can be in a chaotic game like football. What happened in 2008 with Pep is as good of an example you will ever get of anything.
If 29 y.o. GOAT Xavi were put in current Barcelona, and if Koeman let him play, you would be nonstop moaning about his passes "to the side and to the back" as soon as the result didn't go Barcelonas way. It is true though that Barcelona probably wouldn't be improved if you switched De Jong or Pedri for Xavi, isolated. He would need to change the system and the approach, too.

Riqui Puig may or may not be the next Xavi. The tragedy is he relies very much on this club in order to have his potential fulfilled. Koeman doesn't play to his style, but Puig is still influencing the game so very much almost every chance he gets. It is nice that he gets some more playing time, finally.

 

[JamDav1982]

lol did you watch the games? Xavi was not a DM under Rijkaard, Rijkaard was applauded for putting him forward, "unlocking" him.
In the NT he was seen with some suspicion IIRC, until the first gold. In Euro 2004 he was in the squad but did not play, Albelda+Baraja were playing instead (don't remember if there was a reason, but they played 4-2-3-1). 2006 with Aragones he played, although many thought Fabregas should've played more instead. 2008 had very much to do with Senna overperforming btw, it was Del Bosques spain that really showed Xavis (or his styles) potential fully.
Iniesta played well in 2003/04 as well.

The "evidence" is as clear as anything can be in a chaotic game like football. What happened in 2008 with Pep is as good of an example you will ever get of anything.
If 29 y.o. GOAT Xavi were put in current Barcelona, and if Koeman let him play, you would be nonstop moaning about his passes "to the side and to the back" as soon as the result didn't go Barcelonas way. It is true though that Barcelona probably wouldn't be improved if you switched De Jong or Pedri for Xavi, isolated. He would need to change the system and the approach, too.

Riqui Puig may or may not be the next Xavi. The tragedy is he relies very much on this club in order to have his potential fulfilled. Koeman doesn't play to his style, but Puig is still influencing the game so very much almost every chance he gets. It is nice that he gets some more playing time, finally.

You must know more than Xavi himself who credits Aragones with putting him at centre of team and credits with 'changing my career'. Senna was not better in 2008 and Xavi was player of that tournament.

To be honest it feels like you didnt watch Barca/Spain back then and are trying to google the past and make out you had all these views that others would not have had.

 

[vegitot]

lol did you watch the games? Xavi was not a DM under Rijkaard, Rijkaard was applauded for putting him forward, "unlocking" him.
In the NT he was seen with some suspicion IIRC, until the first gold. In Euro 2004 he was in the squad but did not play, Albelda+Baraja were playing instead (don't remember if there was a reason, but they played 4-2-3-1). 2006 with Aragones he played, although many thought Fabregas should've played more instead. 2008 had very much to do with Senna overperforming btw, it was Del Bosques spain that really showed Xavis (or his styles) potential fully.
Iniesta played well in 2003/04 as well.

The "evidence" is as clear as anything can be in a chaotic game like football. What happened in 2008 with Pep is as good of an example you will ever get of anything.
If 29 y.o. GOAT Xavi were put in current Barcelona, and if Koeman let him play, you would be nonstop moaning about his passes "to the side and to the back" as soon as the result didn't go Barcelonas way. It is true though that Barcelona probably wouldn't be improved if you switched De Jong or Pedri for Xavi, isolated. He would need to change the system and the approach, too.

Riqui Puig may or may not be the next Xavi. The tragedy is he relies very much on this club in order to have his potential fulfilled. Koeman doesn't play to his style, but Puig is still influencing the game so very much almost every chance he gets. It is nice that he gets some more playing time, finally.

Lol Xavi did play as a DM back then, under Rijkaard. And it was Antic to give Xavi more freedom in midfield in 2002/03 season.

Lmao Euro 2008 is all about Sena. Xavi was best player of tournament. You disagree??? Even Opta Index considered him as the best player of Euro 2008. Now you discredit him lol.

Put Xavi under current Barca, he would still excel. At least he would play in his favourite position, not out of position like he used to before.

Xavi was the system. That tikitaka would not work without him.

And now you say Koeman don't play Puig style. What is Puig style??? Barca B around him and he hardly won them anything.

His only style that can make him good now is playing as a sub in 70 or 80th minute.

 

[vegitot]

Still no edvidence for Puig being top 5 midfielder in the world right now from Bobo32. Just pure fantasy.

 

[khaled_a_d]

Lol Xavi did play as a DM back then, under Rijkaard.

He didn't.
Edmilson, Marquez,Motta,Yaya were the ones who played in that position under Rijkaard.

 

[Bobo32]

It's just the nature of football, you only gain worldwide recognition when you win major trophies then people jump on the bandwagon mainly brought on by media attention.

Fans of the club may know how great a player is, but unless you're the one scoring goals, the other work can go largely under the radar.

An example, for now, might be Pedri. Most Barca fans and La Liga viewers are waxing lyrical about him at the moment. I could go to Villa Park on a matchday and I bet a good 50% of people have never heard of him even though they watch football every week.

It wasn't that people did or didn't rate Xavi, but until Barca starting winning CL's and Spain winning trophies, no one really paid attention in the media and the flashy brilliance of your Ronaldinho's is what gets the attention.

(answered this a bit more thoroughly before but clicked it away before posting)
You are right about this, this is the nature of the game, and of most fans.
I just expected a bit more imagination from the Barcelona fans, there seems to be a total lack of imagination from most of these posters.
They cannot understand what disaster someone like Upamecano would be for Barcelona (I only saw him 2 games, but I can say that with certainty)
I also expected more pride in what the club was 10 years ago, and more nostalghia and understanding of what made that possible.

Well well, I might be totally wrong with Puig or not, I trust my eye and might keep posting what I see, despite meeting mostly the same response I'd get from Man Utd-supporters.

 

[BBZ8800]

It wasn't that people did or didn't rate Xavi, but until Barca starting winning CL's and Spain winning trophies, no one really paid attention in the media and the flashy brilliance of your Ronaldinho's is what gets the attention.

True.

In Xavi's early years:
1. Spanish NT sucked, like always except from 2008-2012
2. Barca hasn't won La liga in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004.
3. In 2003, we even didn't qualify for a Cl
4. In 2004, in uefa cup, we got KOd by Celtic, lol
5. In 2005, Gerard-Xavi-Deco-Iniesta magical quartet got eaten alive by Lampard and Mou at Stamford bridge
6. In 2006, we won a CL, but Xavi injured knee ligaments in December of 2005, so we won a CL with Edmilson, Deco, Van Bommel, Motta and Iniesta and he didn't even play in KO matches at all.

In that sense, of course that Xavi didn't have a worldwide recognition.
Even though, my 3 personal favorites back then were Ronnie, Etoo and Xavi.

Barca's fans knew Xavi.
People outside of Spanish football, not so much.

He improved with Spain from 2008-2012 and under Pep, but as you said, it is hard to tell whether:
1. Xavi suddenly improved that much aged 28
2. Or his teams just started winning, he was a key part of a well oiled machine and casual viewers started to notice him

For me, personally, Xavi was awesome even from 2003.
Imo, it is not as if he started to be 3x times better player in 2008.

 

[Porque]

Motm.

 

[Bobo32]

He improved with Spain from 2008-2012 and under Pep, but as you said, it is hard to tell whether:
1. Xavi suddenly improved that much aged 28
2. Or his teams just started winning, he was a key part of a well oiled machine and casual viewers started to notice him

For me, personally, Xavi was awesome even from 2003.
Imo, it is not as if he started to be 3x times better player in 2008.

Come on now, it's not hard to tell. At least with the facts in hand.
I have bragged about being right about certain players at the time, but let me be a bit more modest and admit something about Xavi:
Of course I always rated him above Lampard (and above Fabregas), but I much preffered Deco and Iniesta in that 2003-2008 period (I always wanted all three to play, which they did not get to do very often). After Peps arrival and success, at least I had the courtesy to admit I was wrong; Xavi was the ultimate midfielder. It is insanity to say he suddenly got that much better at 28, and that it just happened to coincide with Pep's arrival. Had Pep and the other players arrived in 2003, Xavi would be considered the goat already in 2008.

Puig is not very much alike Xavi. He is a combination of Xavi and Iniesta, with a bit of Deco in him as well. He has some of Xavis movement and sense of positioning together with his willingness to recieve the ball; he has some of Iniestas agility and timing in the dribbles, and I see some of Iniestas passing patterns in him as well (the one-twos, the outside passes, the passes behind the defence); and some of Decos genious and ability to create together with his relentless pressing.
Does he hold the same class as these three? I say so, but I admit it remains to be seen.

Today he got 5 minutes or so, I think he showed (for those wanting to see) again that he is well positioned, makes decent decisions, is good technically, and so on.
As you rightfully said before ITT, he does make decisions on the fly. But it is obvious he keeps 5 options available at all times, and is ready to change his option in a ms. There was a situation where he found a good forward pass after having kept the ball for what most players would feel too long, but he has a calmness in him that I like.

 

[raedkuwait]

Whats the fucking point of bringing him on with 5 min left!?