Mavericky Puig

Porque

Senior Member
We definitely need to plan carefully what is happening with Puig next season. Another year in Barcelona B doesn't really do anyone any good, even if the team is playing in the second division.

Do you promote him and give him around 1000 first team minutes excluding early rounds of Copa where its lower league opposition? (by comparison Alena has played 576 first team minutes excluding Cultural Leonesa games so far this season)

Or loan him to team to develop.

His physique will always work against him on paper, but we have to stop using that as an excuse and actually give him first team minutes and see how far it truly hinders him in elite football. As someone said he is already 20 this summer.

EDIT: Just seen that Khaled posted basically everything that I said.:lol:
 
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FCBarca

Mike the Knife
1-Cuenca got loaned first before playing with us.

To a 3rd division club at 19 years of age. Upon his return to B team, Pep gave him his first team debut where he made an instant impact before injuries ultimately derailed his progress


2-I've spoke about the topic of loaning for years, yes it is difficult thing and in many cases we have executed it poorly but that was due to lack of sporting vision, that is something that have to change because loaning players has proved to be one of the main important aspects for any good academy. We lose a lot if we didn't learn to execute it right. So far under current management our last loans have been success. So let's be hopeful

Sporting direction indeed but cannot claim it has been successful under this management - Deulofeu, Grimaldo, Adama, Romeu, Munir and Ondoa were all poorly managed.



3-Bartra/Roberto/Montoya/Sandro/Munir would have all benefited tremendously from getting a decent loan rather than staying aimlessly in the 1st team for years.

All of those players could just as easily have been played. In Munir's case, the board instead pays 35M for Paco who sat on the bench.


Right now Puig is heading to that territory if he stays, there will be clear better players in 1st team, 3 whom are just 3 years or less older that him. Him or Alena being a bigger talent might be debatable but Alena being better player atm isn't.

Pointless to try & compare/contrast Alena & Puig, they are two very different profile midfielders. Puig is ready to play at the senior level, at other clubs a loan to a club like Ajax might make sporting sense but philosophically it is absurd to see him anywhere but at Barcelona playing & training with the senior squad.


Only Roberto have been able to save his career and make it to Barca and that was after the return of his former coach who believed in him and knew him while changing his position twice and learning to be the most versatile player, possibly between all players at the top level.

Pep called it first and played Roberto first, what happened after and until Lucho arrived only underscores the poor coaching choices and sporting direction of management.
 

khaled_a_d

Senior Member
Sporting direction indeed but cannot claim it has been successful under this management - Deulofeu, Grimaldo, Adama, Romeu, Munir and Ondoa were all poorly managed.

Current management only loaned Paco/Gomes/Cucurulla. Abidal is now the guy calling shots.

All of those players could just as easily have been played. In Munir's case, the board instead pays 35M for Paco who sat on the bench.

No, they couldn't, for any of them at all. Munir was worthless to the team already when we signed Paco, a vastly superior player and talent.


Pointless to try & compare/contrast Alena & Puig, they are two very different profile midfielders. Puig is ready to play at the senior level, at other clubs a loan to a club like Ajax might make sporting sense but philosophically it is absurd to see him anywhere but at Barcelona playing & training with the senior squad.

They are competing for same minutes, so comparing them at this moment is a must.
 

Leo_Messi

New member
[MENTION=711]FCBarca[/MENTION] thank you for saving me some time.

[MENTION=11668]khaled_a_d[/MENTION] have to disagree with a lot of what you are writing. On what universe have our loans worked since this board came to power in 2010? Other than that Rafinha loan (thanks to Lucho mainly) and arguably that of Denis Suárez (who most of us knew was never good enough) worked? The answer is none that I can recall on top of my head.

On the other hand the approach that I spoke about has worked continuously for 30 years and is part and parcel of the Cruyff sporting model that has made us the most successful club team in the world in the past 30 years based on trophies, legacy, playing style etc. Why the hell should us club members and fans in general encourage the destruction of that? It is already bad enough with Valverde being our manager and our playing style suffering due to that very thing.

Puig will be 20 years old in August. His talent cannot be questioned. If Valverde wants to (had it been Pep it WOULD happen) he can easily give him those 10-15 games next season (garbage minutes included) which will most likely benefit him more than some loan given our track record and the difficulties of such a loan as I described. As well as being a first team member with everything this entails.

Once again in my ideal situation (Rakitic being sold this season rather than giving him 3 more years (2024) and increasing his wage) there will be room for Puig to play that marginal/small role in his first season as a first team player.

We definitely need to plan carefully what is happening with Puig next season. Another year in Barcelona B doesn't really do anyone any good, even if the team is playing in the second division.

Do you promote him and give him around 1000 first team minutes excluding early rounds of Copa where its lower league opposition? (by comparison Alena has played 576 first team minutes excluding Cultural Leonesa games so far this season)

Or loan him to team to develop.

His physique will always work against him on paper, but we have to stop using that as an excuse and actually give him first team minutes and see how far it truly hinders him in elite football. As someone said he is already 20 this summer.

EDIT: Just seen that Khaled posted basically everything that I said.:lol:

Imagine having to discuss the issue of physique every single time a talent that is not above 1.80 meter emerges. There were similar discussions in and around BCN when it came to the size of Iniesta, Xavi, Messi and countless of other players. Even with the likes of Puyol or more recently Mascherano.

People who actually watch him regularly as I do know that he is far from being a pushover and that he is playing against much tougher opposition (physically and in terms of what they are allowed to do to him) than what occurs in La Liga. He is the most fouled player. Yet he brushes it off every single time. Talk about physique should not even be taking seriously. More so considering that he might grow further and if not the club will certainly make a special training program for him to gain muscle mass if he somehow struggles at the highest level which I very much doubt that he would. If he would it would not be due to physique but mentally or due to simply not being good enough initially or on the long run (could happen as well of course even Messi could fail).
 
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khaled_a_d

Senior Member
[MENTION=711]On the other hand the approach that I spoke about has worked continuously for 30 years and is part and parcel of the Cruyff sporting model that has made us the most successful club team in the world in the past 30 years based on trophies, legacy, playing style etc. Why the hell should us club members and fans in general encourage the destruction of that? It is already bad enough with Valverde being our manager and our playing style suffering due to that very thing.

Puig will be 20 years old in August. His talent cannot be questioned. If Valverde wants to (had it been Pep it WOULD happen) he can easily give him those 10-15 games next season (garbage minutes included) which will most likely benefit him more than some loan given our track record and the difficulties of such a loan as I described. As well as being a first team member with everything this entails.

In case you didn't notice, only Sergi Roberto has been a true La Masia graduate that made it to 1st team in past 10 years. And during that time we have been deploying youngster promotion more than loans.
To say it is working for 30 years is flat out wrong, it stopped working long time ago since the standards of the club in terms of trophies has changed and the bar was raised
Since Abidal took over we have loaned 3 players, 2 1st team player that worked well for us and Cucurulla that is also doing well for his development.

Puig talent can very much be questioned, his level of talent in comparison to FDJ/Arthur & Alena is very questionable to say at least. To say the coach can easily give him 10 or 15 games is a very subjective assumption too
In your ideal situation, FDJ & Alena will take the Rakitic minutes while Puig will struggle to get minutes while fans curse the coach who doesn't play the favorite prospect as usual, which happened with every coach we had since Rijkaard
 

khaled_a_d

Senior Member
just for the record
Sergi Roberto at the age of 19-20 in Pep's last season, when we had just signed Cesc & promoted Thiago: 318 minutes

Barta at 20-21 : 113 minutes
Montoya: 639 minutes
Puig minutes next season will likely be around the minutes Pep gave for Roberto at almost same age. give or take
If he and the board feels comfortable with that, he should stay for sure
 

Leo_Messi

New member
In case you didn't notice, only Sergi Roberto has been a true La Masia graduate that made it to 1st team in past 10 years. And during that time we have been deploying youngster promotion more than loans.
To say it is working for 30 years is flat out wrong, it stopped working long time ago since the standards of the club in terms of trophies has changed and the bar was raised
Since Abidal took over we have loaned 3 players, 2 1st team player that worked well for us and Cucurulla that is also doing well for his development.

Puig talent can very much be questioned, his level of talent in comparison to FDJ/Arthur & Alena is very questionable to say at least. To say the coach can easily give him 10 or 15 games is a very subjective assumption too
In your ideal situation, FDJ & Alena will take the Rakitic minutes while Puig will struggle to get minutes while fans curse the coach who doesn't play the favorite prospect as usual, which happened with every coach we had since Rijkaard

It stopped working because we got a new board (in 2010) that stopped following the Cruyff model and because not every generation is as talented as the 1987 generation.

Your example of Roberto is not a sound one as during the past 10 years our squad has been STACKED (more than any other club in the world) with more local youth graduates so obviously it would be impossible to continue in the same vain. A squad can only be soo big.

Besides the fantasy notion (that some have) of every generation spitting first team players out is also rather unrealistic and foolish.

As for Roberto being the only one. That is not true. Bartra became a reliable 3rd or 4rd option in a stacked defense. Left because he was too good for such a role and due to wanting continuous playing time. Rafinha would have succeeded as well (you could argue that he already did to an extend) if not for his incredibly bad luck with injuries. As would Grimaldo that Lucho foolishly sold. Munir (initially, although I was never a fan) did a more than good enough job in the current KPB role during the 2014-15 season and 2015-16 season. Much better than KPB can dream about doing. As did Sandro in his first season btw. Obviously they had no chance of succeeding with MSN around (arguably the best offensive trio in recent history, stats confirm this as well). I also recall a certain Montoya.

There have actually been quite a few youth products that have done decently given their role and circumstances.
So the notion of Roberto being somehow the only bright light (just because he is still here) is inaccurate.

No, it is not wrong at all. The model of giving talented youth chances early for the first team has been working generally in the past 30 years since the Cruyff model was adopted and it looks to have returned with the emergence of Aleñá and Puig.

Obviously it has become harder for talents EVERYWHERE to establish themselves as first team players (let alone starters) nowadays due to all the money floating around and the club's approach having changed in terms of the transfer policy.

How many times have you watched Puig for you to say such a thing? I rate him as the bigger talent than Aleñá as do many others that are familiar with both so I beg to differ.

No sane person will curse any coach for not giving Puig more than those games/minutes that I talked about (given his age and that possibly being his first season as a first teamer) with a midfield that we are currently having (one of our strongest positions in many years).
 

Porque

Senior Member
Imagine having to discuss the issue of physique every single time a talent that is not above 1.80 meter emerges. There were similar discussions in and around BCN when it came to the size of Iniesta, Xavi, Messi and countless of other players. Even with the likes of Puyol or more recently Mascherano.

People who actually watch him regularly as I do know that he is far from being a pushover and that he is playing against much tougher opposition (physically and in terms of what they are allowed to do to him) than what occurs in La Liga. He is the most fouled player. Yet he brushes it off every single time. Talk about physique should not even be taking seriously. More so considering that he might grow further and if not the club will certainly make a special training program for him to gain muscle mass if he somehow struggles at the highest level which I very much doubt that he would. If he would it would not be due to physique but mentally or due to simply not being good enough initially or on the long run (could happen as well of course even Messi could fail).

I agree with you. I keep making the Gai Assulin comparison with Puig, and indeed anyone graduating from La Masia who looks talented. He looked wonderful in lower categories but when moving to Barcelona B looked like he was performing everything in quicksand. Puig doesn't have that problem and is easily able to impose his game in the B team and friendlies for the full Barcelona team.

800+ minutes closing games when the opposition is tried is a good target for him if he stays. That is the last 25 minutes of 32 games. So basically all the LaLiga games minus the big matches and tight games, and the CDR. Of course we got a whole squad to manage and not just Riqui Puig to manage, but if Valverde believes in his ability then it is workable.
 

Leo_Messi

New member
I agree with you. I keep making the Gai Assulin comparison with Puig, and indeed anyone graduating from La Masia who looks talented. He looked wonderful in lower categories but when moving to Barcelona B looked like he was performing everything in quicksand. Puig doesn't have that problem and is easily able to impose his game in the B team and friendlies for the full Barcelona team.

800+ minutes closing games when the opposition is tried is a good target for him if he stays. That is the last 25 minutes of 32 games. So basically all the LaLiga games minus the big matches and tight games, and the CDR. Of course we got a whole squad to manage and not just Riqui Puig to manage, but if Valverde believes in his ability then it is workable.

The problem that I have with the Assulin comparison is that the Israeli never stroke me as the next thing despite the hype during the initial "Youtube" era. Bojan was always the bigger talent. Not to mention that Assulin was hardly a goalscorer. To make it big as an attacker you have to score regularly or have a great eye for the final pass. Assulin never really had that IMO.

Puig on the other hand is doing things that the best midfielders (his player profile) are doing. At the highest level granted. It's not something that you can learn. The dribbling ability, the eyes for a pass, gliding past opponents time and time again, not having fear despite being the most fouled player (often brutally), making the right decisions continuously while this young etc.

As for the minute discussion, I obviously agree with your take as that is my take as well. However it all depends on Valverde, the board's visions for him and Puig himself (to take every opportunity given to him as he did in that CdR game wonderfully).

I would just hate to see such a special talent (local too) not be given the needed trust or chances. I am convinced that he has it in him to succeed for us. I want to see that. Not witness him never getting a chance. That's all.
 
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FCBarca

Mike the Knife
Unbelievable people making comparisons to Assulin, clearly they neither saw Gai nor Puig to make such a claim
 

Porque

Senior Member
Unbelievable people making comparisons to Assulin, clearly they neither saw Gai nor Puig to make such a claim

Obviously you are missing the point of the comparison. That both lack(ed) physically but looked great talents in the youth categories. But that when reaching the B team and thus facing adult competitors Riqui has had no problem imposing and performing his game effortlessly (bar last portions of the match understandably) while someone like Gai stagnated and could not perform his actions.

Different positions and have watched them both. But if you do not get the physical comparison then there is no more to be said.
 

tacticvarium

New member
How many times have you watched Puig for you to say such a thing? I rate him as the bigger talent than Aleñá as do many others that are familiar with both so I beg to differ.

I have been regularly following La Masia for a decade now and Aleñá has been clearly the most prominent midfielder talent since Iniesta.
Some rate Cesc and Thiago higher but I have never seen such dominant performance from a midfielder especially during his time in Juvenil B and A. He was much more than just a talented attacking midfielder. His role was more similar to that of Messi and he was given complete freedom. There were even matches that he created 18-20 chances ALONE in the first half only.

Puig on the other hand, while still being considered as a good talent, it was only the last season that he truly showed he has the first team potential when Pimienta took over the Juvenil A team. Until then, he struggled a lot and didn't even make to the starting 11. That was one of the reasons why his promotion was so late compared to Oriol (and others) who is the same age. It was Pimenta who helped Puig to step up his game. So unlike Aleñá who always has been considered as the best talent in La Masia since he joined the academy, Puig was not the case. I hope you are not one of those people who just recently started overhyping him. No one knows who will end up as a more successful footballer in the future but up till now, Aleñá has been and is a clear winner.


Riqui has had no problem imposing and performing his game effortlessly (bar last portions of the match understandably) while someone like Gai stagnated and could not perform his actions.

No offense, but I am honestly confused if you actually watch B team's full matches or just pretend you do while you are in fact judging players based on individual highlights on youtube like those twitter kids. Because if you do actually watch the games, you will be able to easily tell Puig struggles to properly execute passes, dribbling and shooting especially in the final third when physical pressure gets more intense. His final execution is often clumsy (hence poor decisions, accuracy) due to the fact that his physique cannot keep up with his intentions and techniques.

Some people also try to limit the matter of physical ability only to height by using the examples of Xavi, Iniesta, Silva etc. but physical ability is about how accurately one can impose in accordance with his original intention under physical pressures from the opponents and this is often more than just one's height.
 
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FCBarca

Mike the Knife
Obviously you are missing the point of the comparison. That both lack(ed) physically but looked great talents in the youth categories. But that when reaching the B team and thus facing adult competitors Riqui has had no problem imposing and performing his game effortlessly (bar last portions of the match understandably) while someone like Gai stagnated and could not perform his actions.

Different positions and have watched them both. But if you do not get the physical comparison then there is no more to be said.

No, the point is Assulin's hype was a manufactured one (agent) - not one based in reality on the pitch
 

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