Premier League 24/25

Who will win?


  • Total voters
    34

delancey

Senior Member
United are a trainwreck with a mid table level squad. It comes down to that.

I actually think Ten Hag did a good job purely on the management side, but his market work was absolutely dreadful.

With a good SD, he will be successful.
If you believe that very good managers are capable of making mediocre squads over-perform then the opposite must also be true. That is, mediocre managers are more than capable of making very good squads underperform.

Ferguson is a good example of this. The very same squad which won Ferguson his last EPL title is the very same one which Moyes had when he was canned for underperforming relative to expectations. Personally I don’t think that squad was anything special, yet Ferguson got the best out of it, something that mediocre managers such as ETH or Moyes are incapable of at that level.

Let us also not forget that Manchester United has spent more than one billion dollars on player acquisitions over the last 10 years or so. Certainly more than Nottingham Forrest, Bournemouth and Aston, currently sitting at 4th, 5th and 6th place in the EPL, respectively. Their squads are mediocre.

United are 13th in the EPL today.
 

Maradona37

Well-known member
Let us also not forget that Manchester United has spent more than one billion dollars on player acquisitions over the last 10 years or so. Certainly more than Nottingham Forrest, Bournemouth and Aston, currently sitting at 4th, 5th and 6th place in the EPL, respectively. Their squads are mediocre.
This just isn't true though mate - at all. I notice sometimes you seem fixated with how much teams spend. There's no correlation between how much you pay for players and how good they are. Loads of people in football are clueless and vastly overpay all the time. United are among the worst for it. As a Barca fan you should be familiar with it too.

United have spent a fortune, indeed, but that's because they vastly overpay for garbage. They spent 80million on Antony and Maguire, 55m on Mount etc. Those players actual quality is FAR below that level of spending.

Then you imply Bournemouth and Forest MUST have mediocre squads because they spend less - but they buy far better players than United have and get more bang for their buck. If anything you are highlighting the problem man United fans have - thinking their players are far better than they are. I seen one of the better Redcafe posters say - one of their many problems as a club is overrating their players a lot. I mean if someone plays for United (a garbage fallen giant) they must be better than a far less famous player ar Forest or Bournemouth, right? Wrong.

Until they get real about the poor quality of their players they will never improve.

Your entire post comes from your position of being a Barcelona fan - you don't know much about Bournemouth and Forest. They don't register to you because they are not an 'elite club' like the one you support. So you foolishly write off all their players. You just assume they're 'mediocre' because of igorance and them not playing for Real, Barca, Bayern, United, Liverpool etc. It's boring.

This sort of big club arrogance is EXACTLY why United are in the doldrums - deluding themselves their best players are brilliant because they play for a massive club. NO - they just buy garbage. If Lisandro Martinez, matthijs De Ligt and Alejandro Garnacho were playing for Bournemouth these United fans wouldn't even want anything to do with them as players. They're all poor to mediocre players who some think MUST be good because they are at a big club, and Semenyo, Kulivert et al cannot be that good because 'they only play for Bournemouth, aren't that famous, and didn't cost much'. Calling their squads mediocre because you aren't familiar with their players is bollocks.

The truth is that Bournemouth and Forest have better players AND better systems than United. I know it seems amazing to believe given what United achieved in the 90s, but it is true.

For instance, Rashford is a mile more famous than Semenyo, but I would have Semenyo in my team over that clown every day of the week. Ditto the likes of Hojlund, Garnacho and Mainoo - absolute nothing players like Macheda, Januzaj, Darron Gibson and many others before them, but insanely hyped because of Man United being media darlings. If they played for Southampton I guarantee you NOBODY would rate any of them. They're protected by their youth, but their potential is nil. You'll see when time proves me right.

How much longer does this team have to be wank for people to get the hint? I have been proved right EVERY step of the way. Most of their players are garbage and nowhere near top club standards. Combine that with their clueless coaches in recent years, their joke of a structure, and their inability to win 50-50 duels and play possession football, and we are left with the shambles we see now.

They aren't going to improve - these players aren't good enough, nowhere near. Amorim I am not convinced by either, but even if he is a good coach, he can't turn rubbish into gold.
 
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Maradona37

Well-known member
@delancey let me give you an example. Antony cost United 80 million, Andy Roberston cost Liverpool £8 million. Even adjusted for inflation, is Antony 10 times better than Robertson at football? No, I would argue the opposite. He's pish and Robertson has been far better.

But according to your logic Antony must be great because he cost a lot? As if spending a lot of money somehow guarantees quality? That's so much bollocks I don't know where to begin.

Salah cost less than half of Antony. Who is 100 times better at football, though?

Stop being obsessed with costs of squads - United have a squad that costs so much more than their actual quality. Because the people running them are morons and overpay for pish.
 

Maradona37

Well-known member
Ten Haag haters in the mud ?
Two things can be true at once - the players can be poor and Ten Hag can be a mediocre coach. For myself I never said it was one or the other - in my opinion it was both. They should have finished about 15h last season and that is a combination of their poor squad and Erik's moronic tactics and stubborn backing of Rashford and Fernandes, two players (among several) who have been front and centre at every United coach's failure in recent years. Those players force them to play such a rudimentary 'smack it long' chaotic counter attack style and the fact Erik bought into such a failing philosophy and abandoned his 'principles' so early doesn't reflect well on him at all.

That's one thing I will give Amorim credit for - he's sticking to his style of play. I don't think it will be work and I don't expect him to be United manager at the start of 2027, but at least he hasn't caved a month in like Ten Hag did.

It isn't either/or. It isn't a case that either the players are poor or Erik is, and the other party is good. Such binary thinking has no place in football. It is similar to thinking injured players are the messiahs when they are out and the team actually playing is getting hammered - when those players come back in you see it is nonsense and they are just as bad. If Ten Hag came back in tomorrow they'd probably be even worse than they are now.

Injured players get better the longer they are out, the same as Ten Hag is getting better the more he is distanced from this mess. But it isn't true.
 
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Birdy

Senior Member
If you believe that very good managers are capable of making mediocre squads over-perform then the opposite must also be true. That is, mediocre managers are more than capable of making very good squads underperform.

Ferguson is a good example of this. The very same squad which won Ferguson his last EPL title is the very same one which Moyes had when he was canned for underperforming relative to expectations. Personally I don’t think that squad was anything special, yet Ferguson got the best out of it, something that mediocre managers such as ETH or Moyes are incapable of at that level.

Let us also not forget that Manchester United has spent more than one billion dollars on player acquisitions over the last 10 years or so. Certainly more than Nottingham Forrest, Bournemouth and Aston, currently sitting at 4th, 5th and 6th place in the EPL, respectively. Their squads are mediocre.

United are 13th in the EPL today.

Not really...
Past experience says the opposite about ETH

He got the best out of an Ajax squad, in which each and every one proved to be worse than thought back then
From Neres
to Tadic
to De Ligt
and of course, more than anyone ...
to De Fraud

Give the same players to any other coach and ask him to eliminate Madrid and 2018/9Juve to a CL semi-final, which you also deserved to win and lost in 90+ min due to a Lucas Moura career display that will never happen again.
How many do you think could do it?

So it's maybe time to start reconsidering.
Was it really eTH the problem, or is it Amorim now?
Or are the people sitting above them?
 

delancey

Senior Member
@Maradona37

United have spent a fortune, indeed, but that's because they vastly overpay for garbage. They spent 80million on Antony and Maguire, 55m on Mount etc. Those players actual quality is FAR below that level of spending.
I can tell that you and I think differently in this respect. When a team underperforms, you automatically assume that it must be down to the players, ex Manchester United. My perspective differs in that I place tremendous importance on leadership and the system management is able to implement. This is not to say that certain chess pieces aren't more advantageous than others, however, one must also be able to play chess in order to know how to use his MVPs. This is also why so many players do well in one club under a certain manager (and his system) and then transfer out to a bigger club and fail miserably. The system under a specific manager made the player shine. This isn’t talked about enough in football. It's a team sport yet many treat it as a game of tennis.

Let's have a look at Aston Villa’s EPL finishings before Emery took over:
2013/14: 15th place
2014/15: 17th place
2015/16: 20th place (relegated)
2019/20: 17th place
2020/21: 11th place
2021/22: 14th place
2022/23: 7th place (Emery took over mid-season)
2023/24: 4th place (first full season of Emery in charge).

Did its squad just magically change in quality once Emery took over? 😜

That’s some voodoo shit right there. The players just turned into Iron Man in mere months. 🤩

Emery currently has Aston Villa sitting at 5th place in the Champion’s League table, as well. That’s the difference strong leadership at the top CAN make. I am not insinuating that his players are of poor quality, btw. All the respect in the world to these players. I am merely driving home the point that a great manager + team is able to take a team which finished 14th in 21/22 (mediocre) to 4th place in the EPL in 23/24 and 5th place in this year's CL edition.

Again, point is, one can have the shiniest machinery in the world, yet fail miserably if he is incapable of operating that machinery, ie implementing and tweaking his system to maximise the squad at his disposal. Great managers make a good squad over-perform. Mediocre managers are capable of spending a fortune on players and getting caught up in a mid table battle. That is not the players' fault. I repeat this point, but only because too much emphasis is placed on individual talent. It's not a black and white matter, either. I just place more emphasis on strong management and leadership.

But yes, the less good a manager is, the more he depends on individual talent.
 

Maradona37

Well-known member
Yeah mate I agree parts of that. I just think their problems lay with both the players and the coaches.

I already apologised to you for my tone and the aggravated way I talked to you, and I still do.

In this case I just believe both the players and the manager were at fault. I do believe Emery is a great coach, but I believe Villa's players are probably better than United's too, in the main. United's players have now failed under multiple managers and over multiple years.

But you are a nice guy and put your points across well, and I see the merit in some of your posts. I can see why others would agree with you, but me personally I am unconvinced. I have just seen too many basic errors from United players.

But like I say, we can disagree and it's fine. I just don't think any coach can make a good team out of those idiots in the team. But I am not arrogant enough to think I am right and you are wrong - I might be wrong but I just don't see it with their players. it isn't an anti-United thing as I rated plenty of their players when they were a good team.

There's no real way to prove either of us is right or wrong - my claim is that it's a mixture of everything - poor players, mediocre coaching, bad style of play, bad recruitment, bad structure. There's lots of things combining to make them a disaster. I don't think it is one or the other with players and coaches.

Maybe the truth is a bit in the middle. It seems like you think (as examples) Dalot, Garnacho, Zirkzee et al could look much better under Pep or Emery or Slot. Maybe that is true, but I just don't think they have the base level or football IQ required to really improve even when coached by great coaches. I think it is too easy to absolve the players of blame and the long-term players have been getting (admittedly mediocre) managers fired with their lack of ability and unprofessionalism for years now.
 
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Maradona37

Well-known member
Diallo's only guy belongs on an elite team, maybe Yoro. Casa and Eriksen only as veteran subs.
Fair post,. Yeah I like Diallo, though he has a lot to prove too still. Yoro is young and could be a quality player in future. Not sure on many of the others.

Those two are probably their brighest sparks. For me Diallo has a lot more potential than Garnacho, but I am biased towards more technically gifted, intelligent players. I think Diallo has a lot of that over Garnacho (and Hojlund).
 

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