Reinier

+1

I just dont see a massive difference between our talents (or other top clubs for that matter) and Reals brazilian invasion apart from their price tag. And I dont think they will easily get their investment back either, as soon as one of them shows cracks and Real lose hope, Im not so sure other teams will take the bait.

Pepe for example was much more established than any of the guys above.

Exactly. I'm sure Milan tried to play the same game with Paqueta, a player who is far older and more experienced than any of the Brazilians bought by Real. They probably though if he flopped they could sell him for 35m and get their money back. But no one is paying even 20m for Paqueta. A year of playing time in the bin.

Look at Vinicius. A 45m player who I would be flabbergasted if any team outside the epl pays more than 15m for. That's a 66% loss on your investment. Relying on the stupidity of the epl has worked for a while but is an incredibly dangerous long term strategy.
 

Newcomer

New member
Exactly. I'm sure Milan tried to play the same game with Paqueta, a player who is far older and more experienced than any of the Brazilians bought by Real. They probably though if he flopped they could sell him for 35m and get their money back. But no one is paying even 20m for Paqueta. A year of playing time in the bin.

Look at Vinicius. A 45m player who I would be flabbergasted if any team outside the epl pays more than 15m for. That's a 66% loss on your investment. Relying on the stupidity of the epl has worked for a while but is an incredibly dangerous long term strategy.

The only difference is Milan AC are not in Real Madrid financial galaxy. Berlusconi left them with big financial problem and sold them to a chinese crook. Then Elliott took over and they had to pull out of European competitions as a sanction over FFP non fulfillment. Milan AC is also a midtable club nowadays in Serie A and has shit kit and sponsorship deals.

Real Madrid is one of the richest clubs in the world with the highest kit and sponsorship deals with Barça. They are a regular top 2/3 in La Liga, serious CL contender. Spending 35 or 45 M with bonus for Paqueta for Milan is not nearly as impactful as spending 45 M for Vinicius for Real. Both on financial and sporting side. Real can afford Vinicius never playing with the team and spending his time with Castilla and they'll be just fine. Milan on the other hand can't afford it. It is quite telling however that Paqueta is not even a regular (he is more often on the bench than not) in amid table team in Serie A with unconvincing players starting over him. At least, at Madrid, you have Bale, Hazard who are competition to those young brazilians. Another galaxy.

And, there is always the dumb club trying to get that Paqueta flop, even for more then 20 M: PSG. Real MAdrid will have no problem to find buyers.
 
The only difference is Milan AC are not in Real Madrid financial galaxy. Berlusconi left them with big financial problem and sold them to a chinese crook. Then Elliott took over and they had to pull out of European competitions as a sanction over FFP non fulfillment. Milan AC is also a midtable club nowadays in Serie A and has shit kit and sponsorship deals.

Real Madrid is one of the richest clubs in the world with the highest kit and sponsorship deals with Barça. They are a regular top 2/3 in La Liga, serious CL contender. Spending 35 or 45 M with bonus for Paqueta for Milan is not nearly as impactful as spending 45 M for Vinicius for Real. Both on financial and sporting side. Real can afford Vinicius never playing with the team and spending his time with Castilla and they'll be just fine. Milan on the other hand can't afford it. It is quite telling however that Paqueta is not even a regular (he is more often on the bench than not) in amid table team in Serie A with unconvincing players starting over him. At least, at Madrid, you have Bale, Hazard who are competition to those young brazilians. Another galaxy.

And, there is always the dumb club trying to get that Paqueta flop, even for more then 20 M: PSG. Real MAdrid will have no problem to find buyers.

Right that's what I'm saying you have to rely on not very smart managers picking up these players at high prices even when they fail. This is almost exclusive to the epl. As the epl is getting better and better managers all the time ( Ancelotti at Everton) this strategy becomes more and more risky with time.

And fine RM can afford to let these guys sit in Castilla but they are not going to improve so much there and even if they do well out on loan you don't know if they will succeed when they come back. That's why the only way you will know about the player is by giving him VALUABLE playing time in the first XI. Hakimi is doing great but are we sure he will be good enough for Real replacing Carvajal and upgrading on him? How do we know Odegaard won't flop next season when he plays for Real Madrid?

That's why, when you are shelling out 45m euro fees, it's about buying quality over quantity. Real Madrid are venturing too much in to the quantity department for me.
 

El Gato

Villarato!
You make a lot of valid points and I used to think the exact same way but the BIG negative of this tactic is that these players take up spaces in the team leading to negative performances and results and stopping the progression of other better players.

(...)

For example Vinicius. How many lost points and bad performances him playing last year did it take before they realised he isn't good enough?

Huh? Name one bad performance where he cost us points. That bit 'before they realised he isn't good enough' doesn't even make sense. He was very good before his injury vs Ajax, which ended his season.

He almost single handedly (bar introduction of Marcos Llorente) kept us in the top4 throughout Solari's tenure. We were actually shit in attack whenever he was not on the field, that's how much we relied on his influence, because we resorted to completely off form Lucas and Asensio before that. In fact he had an overall good season bar his finishing.
The argument of him curbing better players is nonsense too, because Real Madrid simply did not, and still do not have anyone better. He's our fastest and bravest winger (one who plays consistently and doesn't get injured) who breaks the game up whenever we struggle to break a defense down. His unpredictability is his greatest asset and adds a completely different dimensions to the team. People are idiots if they believe he is worthless because he struggles in the final third. Whether or not he consistently makes the final pass is an entirely different conversation and it doesn't speak to him 'curbing' anybody's progress, especially since there physically is nobody to make a difference. Rodrygo is not behind him in the hierarchy so they are not suffering.
The only way you could try to push this is with Mendy-Reguilon swap where the latter probably could have stayed, but at the same time this doesn't stand up to scrutiny either because is 9 of Mendy's starts we kept 7 clean sheets i.e. he vastly improves our defensive balance. In a way that Reguilon did not.

The question is if there are local talents around, who are just as good.

In attack there clearly haven't been. La Fabrica struggle to nurture attacking talent between 10-15 years of age, but it doesn't mean there aren't any worth their salt. Jese, Morata and Vazquez are the best shouts who 'made it' through the ranks and only Jese was rushed to the top, but he's had a very difficult career on his own health and the health of his child so he didn't stay there. Then you have De Tomas and co level, which is still somewhat respectable.

And even then I think its more reasonable to bank on just a few of them. We are betting heavily on Fati and Ilaix for example, who both joined much sooner than Reals brazilian counterparts and look (probably) as good. Having both Rodrygo and Vinicius, even by chance, at the same time in the squad fucks them both over. Playing them in Castilla would be a massive waste as well. Loaning is pure luck as most teams would rather play their own talent.

Madrid tries to skip a few steps and save money. Fair enough, and we will see how that works out for Rodrygo, Vinicius, Kubo and Reinier etc... I would be shocked if more than one succeeds for Madrid.

I don't like this point on saving money because it removes a lot of credibility from the scouting we're doing. While probably he is trying to be ahead of the curve, it also makes total sense to buy the youngsters at this age given our track record from South America. We have had consistently great scouting there since 2005 - we bought Robinho (superstar in Brazil at 21), Diogo (aged 22), Marcelo (19), Higuain (20), Gago (21), Casemiro (21), Fede Valverde (18) and Militao (21, who counts because he was reported to be on the radar but club delayed and put their hopes in Vallejo so he ended up at Porto) + Vinicius, Rodrygo and now possibly Reinier. And we've had Fabinho come through our ranks in 2012 and Willian Jose in 2014.
How many of the above are or have-been world-class or close to world-class? Just because we pay 30-50 each time, doesn't mean this is any poorer or curbing anybody's growth in the youth ranks. Nor has their personal development been so far.
And if you're doubtful that we buy them TOO young, again, look at the above list and tell me honestly why any of the three we bought U19 could end up any worse than those above given their potential.
 
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Huh? Name one bad performance where he cost us points. That bit 'before they realised he isn't good enough' doesn't even make sense. He was very good before his injury vs Ajax, which ended his season.

He almost single handedly (bar introduction of Marcos Llorente) kept us in the top4 throughout Solari's tenure. We were actually shit in attack whenever he was not on the field, that's how much we relied on his influence, because we resorted to completely off form Lucas and Asensio before that. In fact he had an overall good season bar his finishing.
The argument of him curbing better players is nonsense too, because Real Madrid simply did not, and still do not have anyone better. He's our fastest and bravest winger (one who plays consistently and doesn't get injured) who breaks the game up whenever we struggle to break a defense down. His unpredictability is his greatest asset and adds a completely different dimensions to the team. People are idiots if they believe he is worthless because he struggles in the final third. Whether or not he consistently makes the final pass is an entirely different conversation and it doesn't speak to him 'curbing' anybody's progress, especially since there physically is nobody to make a difference. Rodrygo is not behind him in the hierarchy so they are not suffering.
The only way you could try to push this is with Mendy-Reguilon swap where the latter probably could have stayed, but at the same time this doesn't stand up to scrutiny either because is 9 of Mendy's starts we kept 7 clean sheets i.e. he vastly improves our defensive balance. In a way that Reguilon did not.



In attack there clearly haven't been. La Fabrica struggle to nurture attacking talent between 10-15 years of age, but it doesn't mean there aren't any worth their salt. Jese, Morata and Vazquez are the best shouts who 'made it' through the ranks and only Jese was rushed to the top, but he's had a very difficult career on his own health and the health of his child so he didn't stay there. Then you have De Tomas and co level, which is still somewhat respectable.



I don't like this point on saving money because it removes a lot of credibility from the scouting we're doing. While probably he is trying to be ahead of the curve, it also makes total sense to buy the youngsters at this age given our track record from South America. We have had consistently great scouting there since 2005 - we bought Robinho (superstar in Brazil at 21), Diogo (aged 22), Marcelo (19), Higuain (20), Gago (21), Casemiro (21), Fede Valverde (18) and Militao (21, who counts because he was reported to be on the radar but club delayed and put their hopes in Vallejo so he ended up at Porto) + Vinicius, Rodrygo and now possibly Reinier. And we've had Fabinho come through our ranks in 2012 and Willian Jose in 2014.
How many of the above are or have-been world-class or close to world-class? Just because we pay 30-50 each time, doesn't mean this is any poorer or curbing anybody's growth in the youth ranks. Nor has their personal development been so far.
And if you're doubtful that we buy them TOO young, again, look at the above list and tell me honestly why any of the three we bought U19 could end up any worse than those above given their potential.

You have just written a whole paragraph explaining how Vinicius didn't halt anyone's progression at Madrid. Somehow you ascertained that I said he did even though I didn't and gave a specific hypothetical example of if Barca had bought him he WOULD HAVE HALTED Fati's progression. To prove a general point about how this is not a risk free strategy and in fact could prove to be expensive in terms of affecting player development at a club.

I would also entirely disagree with your statement that he is not worthless because he struggles in the final third. What good is an attacker that struggles in the final third exactly? 😂😂
 

El Gato

Villarato!
^
You're saying this as if there aren't wingers whose main job is not scoring, but assisting or making the penultimate pass. Vazquez struggles in the final third. And he was important. All a winger like Vinicius needs to be able to do to be of use at a top level is beat a man and deliver a ball to a teammate. He can already do the former, his dribbling is rather good and can still get better if he improves the touch, and has a huge burst of speed that no other winger we have provides. The final delivery isn't there, but it's nothing that can't be drilled. If he can do what he did vs Levante more often, say 5-10 times a season as a role player then there's no way you can call him useless.

And no. The paragraph wasn't written to tell you how Vinicius specifically halted the progress, that was actually implied through the conversation anyway, because by your logic and the fact that you don't rate him = he's shit and takes up space from the other better players. Which is nonsense.

Also neatly scooted away from the rest of the post I've challenged you on where you spoke bollocks about his bad performances and RM losing faith in him. Come on then mate - give us an example where he cost RM points. Better yet, when you do that, tell us how many points he's won us last season so we can evaluate these net gains/losses properly.
 
^
You're saying this as if there aren't wingers whose main job is not scoring, but assisting or making the penultimate pass. Vazquez struggles in the final third. And he was important. All a winger like Vinicius needs to be able to do to be of use at a top level is beat a man and deliver a ball to a teammate. He can already do the former, his dribbling is rather good and can still get better if he improves the touch, and has a huge burst of speed that no other winger we have provides. The final delivery isn't there, but it's nothing that can't be drilled. If he can do what he did vs Levante more often, say 5-10 times a season as a role player then there's no way you can call him useless.

And no. The paragraph wasn't written to tell you how Vinicius specifically halted the progress, that was actually implied through the conversation anyway, because by your logic and the fact that you don't rate him = he's shit and takes up space from the other better players. Which is nonsense.

Also neatly scooted away from the rest of the post I've challenged you on where you spoke bollocks about his bad performances and RM losing faith in him. Come on then mate - give us an example where he cost RM points. Better yet, when you do that, tell us how many points he's won us last season so we can evaluate these net gains/losses properly.

Who cares if his dribbling is good if he can't finish the chance or make the final ball? If he has no end product he has no end product no matter how you want to dance around this fact.

What bollocks about RM losing faith in him did I say? I honestly can't believe the final paragraph that you are asking me such ridiculous question which nobody in the history of the world can answer. There are innumerable intangibles. I will simplify things as this :

Vinicius missed numerous sitters , and made numerous failed easy passes for guilt edged chances last season. To the point where it was vividly noticeable to anybody who has an ounce of knowledge about football.

Missing numerous sitters and failing to make easy passes for an opponent to have a sitter in tight games leads to points being dropped. 2 plus 2 equals 4. Can't believe I have had to explain that tbh but it is what it is.
 

El Gato

Villarato!
Who cares if his dribbling is good if he can't finish the chance or make the final ball? If he has no end product he has no end product no matter how you want to dance around this fact.

No end product at 19. Yep, should hang up his boots or go play in Segunda B.

'Numerous sitters', 'numerous failed easy passes' :lol: What's wrong, can't quote actual numbers? Give us some evidence. Show some of those sitters that cost us points like you originally claimed. Would be a shame if you couldn't back it up.
 
No end product at 19. Yep, should hang up his boots or go play in Segunda B.

'Numerous sitters', 'numerous failed easy passes' :lol: What's wrong, can't quote actual numbers? Give us some evidence. Show some of those sitters that cost us points like you originally claimed. Would be a shame if you couldn't back it up.

Let me put this in a Barcelona context for you so you can actual see the lunacy of what you are saying without your Real Madrid rose tinted goggles on.

I'm in a pub on Sunday and I say to my friend that Frankie cost us 3 points on Saturday. My friend replies " You are talking bollocks. I want you to go back and look at all the times he has been on the ball this season, what he did with the ball, quantify that unquantifiable somehow in to how much points he has won for us this season , minus from this the other unquantifiable of how much points he has lost for us this season and you will see he has won more points than he has lost. This makes your argument that Frankie cost us 3 points on Saturday as nothing more than pure bollocks. I want figures for all of the above otherwise it's proof you are making things up."

The above is your argument. That's you. Ludricous isn't it. Just like when you described the 2nd most successful transfer monetarily in the HISTORY of football as not going well for us. That level of lunacy. 😂 Or that there is no evidence that Barca has been real Madrids bogie team the last decade . That level of lunacy.

TIS A MADRID FAN TING.


Goodnight.
 

El Gato

Villarato!
What's unquantifiable? Missed sitters you've seen in the games you've supposedly watched? You could have said you're straight up too lazy to go back and check if your dumb claim is valid and pointed to evidence. Of which it seems you have none BTW. But sure, double down on it, be my guest lol. Lazy vacuous sod.
 
What's unquantifiable? Missed sitters you've seen in the games you've supposedly watched? You could have said you're straight up too lazy to go back and check if your dumb claim is valid and pointed to evidence. Of which it seems you have none BTW. But sure, double down on it, be my guest lol. Lazy vacuous sod.

Ancient Greek proverb 1

" A debate with A lunatic will inevitably descend into lunacy."

Ancient Greek Proverb 2

" The best way to deal with A lunatic is to expose his lunacy, hope he learns from it, AND BOUNCE."

Imma bounce. 😂😂
 

FC433

New member
Almost done to R. Madrid. Congratulations to Madrid supporters! I have never seen him play, but he is highly rated there.

Similar profile to Ilaix Moriba, I think.
 

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