Fati_Future_BallonDor
Well-known member
+1 Its time to recover barca.
Ronald Koeman
- Thread starter barSELOna
- Start date
+1 Its time to recover barca.
Thats easy for you to say, because you dont take the risk. But the club probably cant afford that. We still got top 4 rather easily this season with our veterans, which is the bare minimum. I am all for replacing our old core, but blind actionism is not the way to go.
serghei
Senior Member
Sorry man, but you can sacrifice that if you see an angle where you can achieve success any other way than with a massive rebuild. I don't see it. There is none.
It's mandatory in the next period to drop Busi and Lenglet from the line-up. There's nothing to gain by delaying the inevitable. The sooner we move on the veterans the quicker we will be able to produce the intensity levels required to at least put up a fight against the better teams.
With all that's been said about the intensity levels of the team being better than previously, PSG swept the floor with us in terms of power, speed, and stamina on Tuesday night.
Koeman did some nice things, but he didn't go all in. When the going got tough, he took a step back and adopted the same chickenshit conservative approach that has plagued this team for 2-3 years.
For what? The results are still shit.
Also, what is the risk? This team can't finish lower than 4th in La Liga. There is no real risk anymore. The veterans aren't good enough anymore to deliver the goods, and the league is not strong enough to push us off CL places, because the other teams like Sevilla and Sociedad don't have the strength to knock Barca off 4th place at worst.
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xXKonan
Senior Member
I was surprised that Pique who had been out for months ended up back into the lineup.
Was it due to Club De Amigo pressure or was Koeman that desperate because of how shitty our other options are. Mingueza is the only other fit RCB we have but he probably didn't think he was ready. But either way it didn't fucking matter, Pique did fuck all to help reinforce the defense, Lenglet was still garbage and Dest was having a nightmare.
Out of all the defenders vs PSG the only guy I felt sorry for was Dest, the guy just came back from his injury and had fuck all for support against Mbappe and Kurzawa while you had Dembele being a moron and Pique and Busi are fucking trash at covering players due to their short comings.
Was it due to Club De Amigo pressure or was Koeman that desperate because of how shitty our other options are. Mingueza is the only other fit RCB we have but he probably didn't think he was ready. But either way it didn't fucking matter, Pique did fuck all to help reinforce the defense, Lenglet was still garbage and Dest was having a nightmare.
Out of all the defenders vs PSG the only guy I felt sorry for was Dest, the guy just came back from his injury and had fuck all for support against Mbappe and Kurzawa while you had Dembele being a moron and Pique and Busi are fucking trash at covering players due to their short comings.
i_bleed_blaugrana
Senior Member
If Koeman watched any of our CL games for the last three years, watched how Pique played and then genuinely believed that a 70% Pique was a better option than either Mingueza or Umtiti, he should be sacked immediately.
Koeman bowed to Amigos here, plain and simple. No one sane honestly would have thought that was a good idea against one of the fastest players in the world.
He is either an absolute idiot or he was weak in a moment he needed to be strong. Either one is unforgivable. Call it harsh but I for one am tired of watching us get embarrassed.
+100.
I really do not get the hype with Gini personally. Average player to be honest and for all this flavor of the month stuff about physical, strong midfielders and fanboying over Gini, you ignore players like SMS, Kessie or Tielemans who actually have some of the technical skill necessary to play here. Why not just use Ilaix, again a player who has the technique and actually has knowledge of how we play?
ten Haag literally studied under Pep (just like Zidane did) before he took over at Ajax and brought an extremely-similar style with some tweaks and was 5 seconds away from taking a bunch of kids to the CL final, still the closest de Jong has gotten to winning the damn thing lol.
Do we need to update and tweak our style to meet the demands of the modern day? Of course we do. Should we throw out the baby with the bathwater and try and play Brexit-ball because it beat Liverpool once? Silly and there is not much to suggest that either Xavi nor Pimienta would be an absolute travesty here. The foundations of Cruyffs football, which are very much the same foundations this club is built on currently, is certainly not dead nor unsuccessful, we simply have not had the squad, system and/or coach necessary to do it successfully.
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Birdy
Senior Member
1) Man, you see what's the problem?
Are you seriously comparing Ilaix to Winaldum? Seriously?
I truly hope Ilaix becomes sometime in the future a top player.
I don't want to sound disrespectful to anyone here, but saying use Ilaix instead of Gini is not just idealism, is blindness.
The only youngsters atm that CAN become Barca starters for years to come are Fati and Pedri. And they are already incorporated in the team.
2) There is no hype.
It's just dire reality. Gini is a certified winner, basic engine of a team that reached back to back CL finals, and back to back 95+ EPL points.
He is a physical beast, that can play multiple roles. You don't get to see beautiful through-balls, but does jobs a coach would kill for, and especially jobs Barca are in dire need of atm.
Again, I don't want to sound disrespectful to anyone here, but you should be able to see his merits, even if you are only casually following other teams.
The Xavi-only type of midfielder is an unhealthy obsession.
3) I qualified 'Pep 08-12' to make a distinction from current Pep. Football has evolved a lot since then.
You cannot afford to not run endlessly for 90 min in today's football.
I know Ten Haag studied Pep (of Bayern era), but his team was adapted to modern needs, it bears minimal resemblances to Pep 08-12 in terms of intensity.
Ajax '19 pressing and off the ball movement was insane.
Current City's way of playing is an option of course, but again it involves hell lot of running and defending. Nothing like Barca 08-12, if you compare how much each team runs.
6 sec rule is not enough in today's football mate. Look at the whole picture.
I get it: you are fixated to that era. I enjoyed myself a lot, but we have to look to what's going on nowadays in the sport.
You cannot get back to the roots and succeed if you don't adapt to today's constants
Are you seriously comparing Ilaix to Winaldum? Seriously?
I truly hope Ilaix becomes sometime in the future a top player.
I don't want to sound disrespectful to anyone here, but saying use Ilaix instead of Gini is not just idealism, is blindness.
The only youngsters atm that CAN become Barca starters for years to come are Fati and Pedri. And they are already incorporated in the team.
2) There is no hype.
It's just dire reality. Gini is a certified winner, basic engine of a team that reached back to back CL finals, and back to back 95+ EPL points.
He is a physical beast, that can play multiple roles. You don't get to see beautiful through-balls, but does jobs a coach would kill for, and especially jobs Barca are in dire need of atm.
Again, I don't want to sound disrespectful to anyone here, but you should be able to see his merits, even if you are only casually following other teams.
The Xavi-only type of midfielder is an unhealthy obsession.
3) I qualified 'Pep 08-12' to make a distinction from current Pep. Football has evolved a lot since then.
You cannot afford to not run endlessly for 90 min in today's football.
I know Ten Haag studied Pep (of Bayern era), but his team was adapted to modern needs, it bears minimal resemblances to Pep 08-12 in terms of intensity.
Ajax '19 pressing and off the ball movement was insane.
Current City's way of playing is an option of course, but again it involves hell lot of running and defending. Nothing like Barca 08-12, if you compare how much each team runs.
6 sec rule is not enough in today's football mate. Look at the whole picture.
I get it: you are fixated to that era. I enjoyed myself a lot, but we have to look to what's going on nowadays in the sport.
You cannot get back to the roots and succeed if you don't adapt to today's constants
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Joan
Well-known member
He's in a rather unique position for a coach in charge of a big-name club. Regarding the league, coming 3rd, or even 4th won't make that much of a difference. On top of it, he's got no competition for the spots. Out of all competitions before March, but still enjoys public support. Unless the new board puts pressure on him, can't remember the last time Barca coach had so few expectations to meet. A comfortable position which he should take advantage of.
It's alarming, but also indicating, we've lost all big matches so far. Shows the team cannot translate the good from Liga displays onto the bigger stage. He's given chances to some younger players, even been brave to entrust them in more important moments, but the core of Barca's modus operandi hasn't changed one bit. Everything's the same but us being less fit to execute the gameplan each passing season. Slow, static possession first based football, with an utterly outdated defensive concept. And, a curious bit is that Koeman isn't that type of a coach. If had to, would describe him as your usual, average manager. Not an outdated purist like Setien.
Valverde's tenure was different, had different objectives, but Valverde didn't hesitate to adapt the plan to the team and pre-set goals. Stabilized the defense with sources at his disposal and went on to win those titles in the end. Now, I don't think Valverde's way is the right for us with the squad we've got right now, but you get the gist.
Hope Koeman isn't stubborn that much and tries to hit a more modern, better-suited road even if it means moving away from the little comfort zone he's found with his recent 11.
It's alarming, but also indicating, we've lost all big matches so far. Shows the team cannot translate the good from Liga displays onto the bigger stage. He's given chances to some younger players, even been brave to entrust them in more important moments, but the core of Barca's modus operandi hasn't changed one bit. Everything's the same but us being less fit to execute the gameplan each passing season. Slow, static possession first based football, with an utterly outdated defensive concept. And, a curious bit is that Koeman isn't that type of a coach. If had to, would describe him as your usual, average manager. Not an outdated purist like Setien.
Valverde's tenure was different, had different objectives, but Valverde didn't hesitate to adapt the plan to the team and pre-set goals. Stabilized the defense with sources at his disposal and went on to win those titles in the end. Now, I don't think Valverde's way is the right for us with the squad we've got right now, but you get the gist.
Hope Koeman isn't stubborn that much and tries to hit a more modern, better-suited road even if it means moving away from the little comfort zone he's found with his recent 11.
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Messigician
Senior Member
What could have been dawgs
Marcelo Gallardo, River Plate manager, turned down the chance to coach Barcelona after Ernesto Valverde was sacked. Quique Seti?n was signed in the end.
? TyC Sports
Marcelo Gallardo, River Plate manager, turned down the chance to coach Barcelona after Ernesto Valverde was sacked. Quique Seti?n was signed in the end.
? TyC Sports
i_bleed_blaugrana
Senior Member
1) No. If you actually go back and read my post, you will see that I actually compared Gini to other more established yet physical midfielders who have a similar profile to Gini but crucially actually have more of the technical qualities required to succeed here than Gini. Considering how broke we are right now, that is why I brought up Ilaix. I am not saying that he is at Ginis level at the moment but he has a lot of similar characteristics to why you and others think Gini would succeed here. Considering how old Gini is, I see more upside potential in giving a chance to Ilaix rather than spending extra money we do not really have on Gini. If you go back and look at my posts over the years, I have always favored trialing our youth products in the first team before we go to the market for a player of a similar profile. You called me blind for saying that in turn, we should give Ilaix a chance but then go on to say that Fati and Pedri are the “only” players who could make it here. Well if we followed the same logic that lead you to calling me blind, we would have never known Fati or Pedri were good enough because they would never get a chance due to having players like Gini or Depay taking their playing time. So with that in mind, I would rather give Ilaix a look and spend our money where it is more needed, like at CB. Especially for a player who got benched by one of our “rejects who was not physical enough and was just another Xavi-type player” who will be on the wrong side of 30 once he gets here.
2) You know who else had all of the qualities you named? Arturo Vidal. I liked the fight and personality he brought, but there were a lot of times he stuck out like a sore thumb here. You are extrapolating your interpretation of my words rather than actually reading what I am saying. I never said we should only have “Xavi-type” midfielders. I will say it again so that way it is perfectly clear: we need midfielders with the technical skills required to succeed here. That does not mean that I am referring to only players like Xavi, Isco, Bruno etc. Players like Seydou Keita, Yaya Toure, Edmilson, Thiago Motta and even Frenkie in a lot of ways, all are tall, physical and tough on the ball, strong in the tackle and/or fast but crucially they could play penetrative passes and had good ball control in tight spaces. Assuming we could realistically go to the market right now and sign a player of this profile, there are a few players who fit the “physical” profile better than Gini would like SMS, Tielemans and even Fabian Ruiz. All of those players bring similar physical attributes and adaptability like Gini but are all younger, have better technical skills and can contribute offensively. Even if you are only casually following these teams, surely you would have thought of players like these before Gini, no...?
3)Yet again, more extrapolation of shit I never said. Saying I want us to get more aligned with the foundations of this club, shit that goes back way further than Pep, Messi and even Xavi, which are intertwined with Cruyffs interpretation of the game does not mean we should only play like Pep 08-12. The points you bring up with Ajax are exactly what I am saying: they took key elements of Cruyff and Peps systems, made their own adjustments and tweaks and brought a style of football that resembled Cruyffs principles but also adapted the modern demands of the game. Bruv, that is ALL I am saying we do, and for too long, we have not had the coach, sporting project and cohesion from our board and sporting staff to do this. If you actually go and watch some film from either Xavi or Pimienta currently, they seem to good examples of the sort of modernization that could be successful for us. Again, tweaks and adjustments is what I think is necessary here, not an entire rethink. I do not have a “fixation” at all, I am perfectly aware of how much the game has changed over the last 10 years. What I am saying though is we should at least try and do this right and see the results before we automatically assume we have to start from square one again.
Barcelona of Pep was a pressing machine,did we forget that?Barcelona would have great success with Guardiola's tactics in this age too,but you need the players and the coach for that.And also Barcelona should remain Barca,not Liverpool,Bayern....some you guys really reek of glory hunters fans at times,if you like that much Bayern,Liverpool etc., go support those teams.Barcelona will be back,eventually.
Birdy
Senior Member
I wanna make clear that I am happy with Barca becoming a better version of Ajax 18/19, and I don't want to make Barca into Bayern or Liverpool. But in order to become that version, several things that are needed.
1) The difference is Fati and Pedri stood out right away at the age of 17. When you put a 17yr old in Barca's XI and you see that they make the team better in most respects, then the trial is successful.
Same about Frenkie. He was transferred in because he was the best midfielder in Europe in 18/19.
Dembele was the best young player in Germany in 16/17.
You have to have strong evidence before you make any such bet.
Can you say the same about Ilaix? No!
Give him playing time, loan him out, see how he develops? Yes, but that's different from saying 'let's bet on Ilaix'
You can't hope to make those risky bets with many players, and the hope at the same time to have a build a competitive team.
Even in the golden team of Pep, you had only Pique, Busi, and Pedro being the bets (each in different year).
All the rest were already proven
2) Arturo Vidal 18-20 is half the player Wilajdum currently is. Plus: they bear some similarities, but Vidal is less versatile and can play fewer roles in the team.
Then,you don't seem to have watched the player a lot. You think SMS, Kessie, Tielemans or Ruiz are better than him. None is!
They are more technical, but they cannot do half of the jobs that guy is doing on the pitch.
They are not as disciplined defensively, they are not as stamina monsters, they are not as versatile positionally, they do not concede less possessions, they are not as good readers of the game with off the ball movement.
I don't care if they can play better through-balls than Gini. Why? Because we have other players for that (like Pedri, Frenkie).
A team is all about balance of roles. You seem to be dreaming only of a Pep midfield with all excellent passers
Now about him turning 30, that's a valid point and Liverpool is not renewing him for more years because of his age.
But again, I never said he is a player for the next decade.
But he can be very crucial for at least 2 seasons, when the team is trying to get rebuilt and compete for domestic titles next season.
3) If you really want Barca to do that, you should be happy with Koeman though. Because he has started introducing some elements, like physical preparation, players having stamina to run, like some pressing and intensity. He has started installing some aggression on this - entirely until 2019 - passive team.
But you don't seem to acknowledge that, and you don't want Koeman to continue on that path. Why?
Then, I am skeptical about how Xavi or Pimienta can do that. I don't know what films you are referring to.
Someone posted here some time ago a thread on how Xavi's Al Saad plays, and i felt like being transferred through a time-machine to 2010 and I was watching again all the triangles and positional play of Pep's Barca all over again.
Honestly, the only trial that will tell if Xavi can succeed at Barca, if he is really taking into account the modern needs of the game, and he is not some fixated Pepista idealist, is if he takes charge of a 2nd tier European team in a serious league, like Leicester, like Roma, like Gladbach, or like Valencia,Villarreal or so in Spain.
Trusting Xavi to take charge of Barca now, can only be dangerous.
And it's not that I think Koeman is the best coach out there. I just happen to see progress on the path of addressing modern football needs.
If club wanted to hire Ten Haag for example, who has a proven record in doing so, I would be all in.
messi2140
6racies Xavi
My thoughts aswell. It's like everything that has been built towards this game was thrown out the window. Not the mention the fact that he went with that Pique/Lenglet/Busi combo.
xXKonan
Senior Member
The main worries were always going to be Busi and the CB's.
Not only did he started the Triangle of death Busi-Lenglet-Pique but we played some cowardly football that got us nowhere and we got smacked at fucking home. It's the same fucking shit that sent us out in the CL in terrible fashion, for the last 4 fucking years and no matter the manager we are still making the same mistake.
Not only did he started the Triangle of death Busi-Lenglet-Pique but we played some cowardly football that got us nowhere and we got smacked at fucking home. It's the same fucking shit that sent us out in the CL in terrible fashion, for the last 4 fucking years and no matter the manager we are still making the same mistake.
jairzinho
Senior Member
No matter how much you dissect the PSG game and change the lineup around we're still getting smacked. That's just the cold reality imo and alot of fans need to accept that. Last December we played Juve without Pique and Busi and it was more or less the same result. Yeah maybe Fati could have made a difference or maybe Puig or whoever but it's just same ifs and buts all over again. Fact is we got beat and it's not a narrow result it's the same ass whooping yet again. It's becoming a continuing trend and it shows our game needs to evolve. If it doesn't, we risk falling further behind or worse falling into complete irrelevance. Get the remaining oldies out and adopt a quicker, direct game with technical and athletic players.
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