Ronald Koeman

[El Gato]

Where is Serghey telling us how much better this team is without Messi? Yeah, miles better.

It's better in some sense.
This is just what you'd expect to happen when players have to find their feet in their new reality without him.

Then again fuck knows what serghei means so I'm not going to interpret.

I am personally angry not because of results but lack of vision. All managers that came after Pep didn't have idea what to do. So, of course we are weaker without GOAT but to put Memphis instead of Messi and play the same is some serious stupidity. We all believed Xavi was slowing us down at the end, then hopped after Messi we would have to change wether we wanted or not - and, somehow, we still don't change.
So if I saw manager who tried more dynamic, faster football, attacking idea, vision, attacking the box, holding the lines closer in defence and so on...and then Memphis, for example, couldn't finish what Messi would easily I wouldn't be mad. Than we would talk only about quality. Thing is, no big team play like we do, we are stuck in dreamland.

Wasn't even much of a problem before half your forwards got sold or hurt. Give it time and you'll see your perception changing. This is very similar to when Lopetegui was losing everything left and right when key squad players got hurt and those that remained wouldn't listen because they were so confused that CR isn't there they just wouldn't implement most instructions.

But if you're upset because it's been like this since 2014 then I suggest you get used to it by now..

 

[Gaudi]

It's better in some sense.
This is just what you'd expect to happen when players have to find their feet in their new reality without him.

Then again fuck knows what serghei means so I'm not going to interpret.



Wasn't even much of a problem before half your forwards got sold or hurt. Give it time and you'll see your perception changing. This is very similar to when Lopetegui was losing everything left and right when key squad players got hurt and those that remained wouldn't listen because they were so confused that CR isn't there they just wouldn't implement most instructions.

But if you're upset because it's been like this since 2014 then I suggest you get used to it by now..

It was, it's the problem for years now, and no coach is trying to change that.
Of course we are used to it as we hire mediocre at best coaches.

 

[i_bleed_blaugrana]

I'm not even being funny but y'all trashing Koeman is identical to most madridistas trashing Lopetegui when your manager's team is an order of magnitude poorer. He's a bit of a cunt admittedly on personality but this is genuinely not on him.

Ive been telling you all to get readying mentally for Messi departure and that it'll be 3x as bad as when CR was leaving. It seems most of you still haven't clicked he left.

Lot of truth in the 2nd part here. People really need to lower expectations a bit as I still think this has not bottomed out yet. But the difference is CR left at probably the best time he could have while Messi arguably the worst, especially considering you got 100 mil out of CR while we got tears at a press conference. But as a whole, we have woefully failed in preparing for not just Messi but too many instrumental players to our success. Dani left, what? 6 years ago roughly now, and we still are struggling to replace him.

What frustrates me the most is that we really should not be struggling at all in this department. Sure, Barto but we just have not had a coherent conception of how we want to play right now, what sort of players we need and how this should inform our next moves when all of this was in place before. Barto was massive in this but as fans, we have to accept that we allowed a lot of non sense to continue in the name of glory and we need to learn and wake up from that.

That is why I disagree with you on this not being on Koeman. Sure I am not going to blame the entire situation on him but the team is regressing, I am getting the sense that either Koeman is blind and cannot see what we need to do to start generating some sort of attacking threat or he is giving the players instructions and they are no longer listening. This is not a treble winning team by any means but Koeman can and should be getting more out of these players than he has and this trend really goes back to how we ended last season. He absolutely has to take the L on someone like Luuk who just looks lost and wasted out there.

It just has been pretty clear to me since we lost to you guys last spring that he could not take this team any further. He does not have a clear idea or vision for moving us forward and especially considering everything I stated previously about how poorly our rebuild has been going, we desperately need someone who at least has a clear idea.

 

[El Gato]

Of course we are used to it as we hire mediocre at best coaches.

Um that's a circular argument..
You hire who wants to work for you. Because you posit the better ones with a set of conditions they don't find suitable. Locked in all of your veterans to long contracts as a reward for serial league wins, which does not allow any sensible sporting project to take shape.
Klopp, Pep, any of the new fad German managers wouldn't have a problem coming to Barcelona if they knew club is capable of letting go the players that do not fit their football.

 

[El Gato]

But the difference is CR left at probably the best time he could have while Messi arguably the worst, especially considering you got 100 mil out of CR while we got tears at a press conference. But as a whole, we have woefully failed in preparing for not just Messi but too many instrumental players to our success. Dani left, what? 6 years ago roughly now, and we still are struggling to replace him.

For sure, but this is just business benefits.
CR departure still hurt the team for at least a year until they realised how they have to play without him and now, 3 years after he'd gone, it's the first time RM has scored 6 goals in a Liga game. It takes a long long time to recover a functioning offense. And it has been a functioning offense under Messi up until the final day of his contract.

That is why I disagree with you on this not being on Koeman. Sure I am not going to blame the entire situation on him but the team is regressing, I am getting the sense that either Koeman is blind and cannot see what we need to do to start generating some sort of attacking threat or he is giving the players instructions and they are no longer listening. This is not a treble winning team by any means but Koeman can and should be getting more out of these players than he has and this trend really goes back to how we ended last season. He absolutely has to take the L on someone like Luuk who just looks lost and wasted out there.

It just has been pretty clear to me since we lost to you guys last spring that he could not take this team any further. He does not have a clear idea or vision for moving us forward and especially considering everything I stated previously about how poorly our rebuild has been going, we desperately need someone who at least has a clear idea.

Look - everyone knew Koeman was problematic from starters. Since the first time you heard the rumors under Valverde.
He's a dogmatist who doesn't come across as a kind understanding man. He's there to teach serious players how to play serious football and is all about accountability on the pitch counting on kids to pick themselves up. Zidane by comparison has truckloads of empathy to young players that tried very hard - he let them have pitch time, but gave them poor instruction which facilitated the lack of personal growth from week to week and month to month. Here conversely you have a guy who fields the kids right now out of necessity and sounds off like "what am I supposed to do if they're not equipped to listen". Koeman consistently dodges responsibility for losses because he always thinks there's a system flaw or external reasons for why he fails. Just a poor leader for a squad of players who just saw the arguably biggest name in club history leave. A bad fit all around for post-Messi/late-Messi transition

But he is not the biggest issue here for the team and fan morale. Today after a string of shite performances, although he could definitely do better as a manager with the backup squad, your biggest issue right now are injuries.
Braithwaite, who some users here would dump to Championship in a heartbeat, is a guy who has arguably the biggest positive work ethic impact publically and probably in private on training ground. If he were a loyalist like Vazquez, it'd not even be a consideration to let him go in current situation unless a like for like replacement with a more consistent performance could be found
Dembele, while he's a shite finish, is the only truly fast winger you have other than Fati which breaks opponents structure.
Fati, probably your best finisher after Depay, is who you look forward to returning despite not even knowing how he'll end up being.

TL;DR
You miss a few players and are in a dip. It'll be better once they return.
All the while everyone is learning how it is to be Barcelona without Leo Messi
Koeman sucked as personality fit from starters, but reacting to current results is a bad choice all around
Just gotta clench your teeth and hope you'll get the health back enough to pass through CL and won't fall behind more than 5 points in league

 

[Birdy]

That's exactly the issue.
That's on Laporta honestly. It's the president's, not the coach's, job to tell some club legends that their time is up, and that, irrespective of their contract, they should step aside.
They should not be starters to begin with,
they should hand the captain's armband to other people,
they should not have a say in the dressing room,
they should either retire or stay on the bench or have a peripheral role

Doing that will liberate everyone else -> find new roles, new leaders, new captains

And all that is apart from the question of the coach and the tactics
Everyone knows who the top coaches available are, and which of them fit 100% the football Barca wants to play, and there are a few of them.
It's silly to discuss about Xavi or Martinez when we know that they cannot get us to that level the top coaches can.
In between, and until one of them becomes available and willing to coach Barca, only a manager that oversees a transition can play a role,
yep, like Koeman

PS: Notwithstanding that if there is some fair ground of criticism against Koeman, it's not about his tactics or personel selection
it's rather about the issues Wolfe is brininging up
When the first rumors spread, after 2-8, that Koeman is a candidate to become the manager, I was positive from a certain perspective:
that as a club legend he will command respect in the dressing room, and will have a specific mission to phase out all veterans, sooner rather than later.
Now, we see that he wasn't under that mission to begin with,
BUT his problematic personality, lack of diplomacy, and inability to handle PR are costing himself personally, and to the image of the club

If there is a serious reason to sack him it's that rather than his 'lack of vision'
Mind you, whoever comes now like Xavi or Martinez, will be an 'overseeer' like Koeman, rather than the 'leader of the new project' that the board wishes to believe

 

[Birdy]

about ralph hasanhutl of southampton

He is not in the category of 'top coaches'

Tier 2 probably,
still better bet than Martinez or Xavi

 

[i_bleed_blaugrana]

That's exactly the issue.
That's on Laporta honestly. It's the president's, not the coach's, job to tell some club legends that their time is up, and that, irrespective of their contract, they should step aside.
They should not be starters to begin with,
they should hand the captain's armband to other people,
they should not have a say in the dressing room,
they should either retire or stay on the bench or have a peripheral role

Doing that will liberate everyone else -> find new roles, new leaders, new captains

And all that is apart from the question of the coach and the tactics
Everyone knows who the top coaches available are, and which of them fit 100% the football Barca wants to play, and there are a few of them.
It's silly to discuss about Xavi or Martinez when we know that they cannot get us to that level the top coaches can.
In between, and until one of them becomes available and willing to coach Barca, only a manager that oversees a transition can play a role,
yep, like Koeman

PS: Notwithstanding that if there is some fair ground of criticism against Koeman, it's not about his tactics or personel selection
it's rather about the issues Wolfe is brininging up
When the first rumors spread, after 2-8, that Koeman is a candidate to become the manager, I was positive from a certain perspective:
that as a club legend he will command respect in the dressing room, and will have a specific mission to phase out all veterans, sooner rather than later.
Now, we see that he wasn't under that mission to begin with,
BUT his problematic personality, lack of diplomacy, and inability to handle PR are costing himself personally, and to the image of the club

If there is a serious reason to sack him it's that rather than his 'lack of vision'
Mind you, whoever comes now like Xavi or Martinez, will be an 'overseeer' like Koeman, rather than the 'leader of the new project' that the board wishes to believe

Disagree with the problems with Koeman are only personality wise. The Atlantic did a great article really looking at how tactically flawed we were against Bayern. He is continually outclassed by other managers on the big stage.

Disagree with the idea that Xavi cannot progress the team. Only thing I will also add is that while I agree with the veterans being the source of the problem, I am not yet convinced that they are only starting still because Laporta/the board says or their personal influence within the club.

I think it is because Koeman is a bully, only picks on players like Puig and Pjanic and similar to Valverde & Setien, does not have the balls to bench them and did not/can not devise of a system that is good enough to allow them to do so. If they were better tactically and had a better idea at real replacements they could get something out of, it would not have been such a risk to phase them out. That is why I harp about a clear vision with Koeman and you should maybe not be so dismissive of how essential this is to the equation.

TL;DR
You miss a few players and are in a dip. It'll be better once they return.
Koeman sucked as personality fit from starters, but reacting to current results is a bad choice all around
Just gotta clench your teeth and hope you'll get the health back enough to pass through CL and won't fall behind more than 5 points in league

It is not reacting to just the results though. It is more his lack of clarity on what he wants to do. I have seen him try about 3 or 4 different approaches in terms how we press, overall shape, offensive organization etc. and none of them have been really coherent.

I think the injuries have played a big role for sure. My thing is though, even with Ansu and Kun and Dembele and everyone fit, sure we will probably get past the likes of Cadiz (hopefully) but we will still get exposed in the big games, just like last season.

 

[Birdy]

his rb leipzig team were dangerous. his team plays high intensity,pressing,lightning fast counter and not some sterlie possesion,backward passess with no end.

Yep, I know, I didn't say he is trash
But I think he is too counter-attacking for what we want, plus his resume does not involve a big club or a club doing well in Europe

 

[Birdy]

I think it is because Koeman is a bully, only picks on players like Puig and Pjanic and similar to Valverde & Setien, does not have the balls to bench them and did not/can not devise of a system that is good enough to allow them to do so. If they were better tactically and had a better idea at real replacements they could get something out of, it would not have been such a risk to phase them out. That is why I harp about a clear vision with Koeman and you should maybe not be so dismissive of how essential this is to the equation..

If that's true (which I can't confirm), yes that's a big problem and it's contrary to my hunch about him.
We want someone who has the balls to bench all the seniors and veterans, and basically remove their status from the dressing room.
That person can't be Xavi, who is their teammate and friend

(I posted an article the other day about how Poch did that with Raul Tamudo at Espanyol, and was eventually vindicated)

 

[i_bleed_blaugrana]

If that's true (which I can't confirm), yes that's a big problem and it's contrary to my hunch about him.
We want someone who has the balls to bench all the seniors and veterans, and basically remove their status from the dressing room.
That person can't be Xavi, who is their teammate and friend

(I posted an article the other day about how Poch did that with Raul Tamudo at Espanyol, and was eventually vindicated)

With Koeman, go look how he did a Joaquin, a fucking legend in Seville, during his time in Valencia. Plenty of other examples of him having these explosive riffs with players and he seems to always go for low hanging fruit. Never going after big stars or dressing room powerhouses and always on players who he has way more power than. Thats a lot of his problem, the right sort of attitude with the completely wrong approach and idea.

Not sure with Xavi honestly. I believe after watching the team from the outside for a while and being able to come in the middle of such a situation, he loves this club enough to do what is right. If he did it right, had a proper sit down with the boys and just told them truth, Im sure they would understand why he was doing this. Pique in particular has stated his willingness to step down, should he be asked to. I just genuinely believe he hasnt been asked to by Koeman, especially with the chicken shit behavior Pjanic had to deal with from him. They dont have to leave immediately and can be subs and rotation players but so long as Xavi phases them out of the starting 11 in the first 6-8 months, thats all that needs to happen and I believe Xavi is capable of making that call.

He loves and has breathed this club more than almost any other coach we have had in our past, even more than Pep in some ways since he didnt play for anyone else in Europe. I would be very surprised then if he put his personal friendships and memories with mainly Pique and Busi over the interests of the club. I could be in for a very rude surprise, we will see, never say never in football but I would be very surprised, considering how much he has talked about being ready for this.

Last thing is with Busi and Pique, that really wont be an issue for too long because both will retire in the next year or two most likely, so I am not sure of how long this will actually be an issue.

 

[Nazario1985]

Why do people act surprised ?

Where is the appraisers of "young & unskilled but fast is good" ?

Free or low cost players is not a "smart" move it's just nobody wants them.

 

[El Gato]

It is not reacting to just the results though. It is more his lack of clarity on what he wants to do. I have seen him try about 3 or 4 different approaches in terms how we press, overall shape, offensive organization etc. and none of them have been really coherent.

I think the injuries have played a big role for sure. My thing is though, even with Ansu and Kun and Dembele and everyone fit, sure we will probably get past the likes of Cadiz (hopefully) but we will still get exposed in the big games, just like last season.

Yeah well RM had to go through that 1-2 years after CR left too.
Smashed 0-3 in 17/18
0-3 vs Seville in 18/19 after he left
Barely grinded draws vs Atleti and Barca (in cup) while also losing 0-1 to Rakitic goal, 1-4 at home to Ajax
Pretty average at best vs PSG in groups in 19/20 (then again we hardly ever take groups seriously)
Kept losing cup knockouts

I don't know what you expect but you need to wait this year out and not get mad when you look like shit when half your attackers are out injured.
Folk used to go ballistic over Lopetegui not handling the 18 potential Ballon DOr winners (Perez's words at the time) correctly.
Koeman doesn't have that and folk are sounding off like you're supposed to show some promise?
Wait for Braith, Dembele and Pedri to return and accept you might get found out in bigger games unless you're in a particular stretch of form.

 

[Mateka]

Koeman is still unbeaten this season.

 

[ajnotkeith]

I mean realistically where are the players who are making the case to start ahead of the amigos? Koeman asked for a midfielder and didn't get it, he also asked for a good striker and didn't get it, etc. I don't think Garcia is better than Pique and we are very short of proper options in midfield with young raw Gavi and Nico having to play much more minutes than they should.

No squad replacements have been provided for the washed players. Laporta looked at them and thought they were good enough. If we had brought a top CB, a top midfielder like Gini, etc, those would be benched rn