SSC Napoli

[Beast]

What? Both Carnevale and Di Napoli were integral part of the team that won the first Napoli title.



Lol. Why don't you also imagine that Elche gets FINANCIAL POWER to break WORLD RECORD TRANSFER FEE to bring Messi in, like Napoli did in Maradona case.


Napoli finished 8th in Maradona's first season.

Yes and i said taken Serie A by storm before they arrived .. the 2 years before Maradona arrived Napoli was 1 point & 2 points away from Relegation.. Suddenly Maradona made them a pain in everyone butt .. scoring enough goals to come third in the goal scoring charts and beating the likes of Inter & holding the powerful house Juve.. we are talking about 1 player alone with a 19 year old promising defender... no more no less .. look at Juve & co lineup

Yes they Mafia supplied the money but unlike now it was just one player... it also took a lot of balls for Maradona as Napoli was a true nobody.. no one dared to do such a thing

- Yes you are right I meant the next season after the 8th they went up to third...

I wasn't actually asking for any name. Yes, I knew about Elkjær and knew he's on that team. I was also old enough to watch him in 1986, although I was very young back then and it was my first tournament I watched "live" on TV.

My point was despite being a very good player, Elkjær was no "greatest of all time." And what he achieved with Verona should put Maradona's achievement with Napoli into perspective. While Maradona helped turn a relegation-battling team into league champion in a few season, some other guy had already done a similar feat by helping take a recently-promoted team to the league title. Although Maradona was definitely one of the greatest footballers in history, what he did with Napoli speaks more about how evenly powered the teams in Serie A were than his quality as a footballer.

You wouldn't expect Elkjær to lead today's Elche to trophy if he was born 30 years late, would you?



That's my point, every team had a star so there wasn't one truly dominant team within the league, unlike today's RM/Barca in Spain, PSG in France, Bayern in Germany... I could go on. So it was a lot easier back then to turn a mid-table club into a title challenger by adding 1 superstars and a few more quality players.

Every top league nowadays is dominated by 1 or 2 teams, with a squad full of international superstars, and no one single player, no matter how great, can turn a relegation-battling team into title challenger.

ElKajer actually came third in the European player of the year several times during that era and he is by far the best Danish striker of all time (Laudrup isn't a striker ) .. and unlike the case with Napoli they had more stars like Briegle etc
and Verona was not coming from relegation if i remember correctly Verona was in Serie A for a very long time when they won Serie A and before they won the league the two seasons before they came 4th & 6th not escaping relegation like Napoli did..so it's not the same as Napoli situation who were on the decline
Serie A have much more stars in all teams unlike now where leagues are dominated by you & us makes it all the more harder don't you think ? harder games & tougher leagues ..so how it's easy ?? you go into the league now & you expect Barca & Real to win all games except the Clasico and maybe 1 or 2 games away ...back than it's impossible to predict any outcome because 7-8 teams are competing.. and if it's just any superstar Zico would have won it with Udinese ... and he was no small star.. apart from Maradona's Napoli they rest had strong teams
No ElKjaer wouldn't lead Elche because he already had a very solid Verona team with him.. Maradona didn't as i said Ciro Ferrara who went on to be one of Juve greatest defenders was a kid.. a 19 year old .. the rest of them followed and until now you cannot put Carnavale , Di Napoli or even Careca as the best in any form of historical posts.. .. you'd put Maradona.. you might put Ferrara .. that team won 2 impossible leagues titles they first & last league title for Napoli not a one off & a good UEFA cup on top...
I don't understand how you say a league dominated by 2 teams is better than a league dominated by 6-7 teams.. or winning that one is harder

 

[Kerrybai]

No they didn't at the time.. they were about to be relegated the season before he moved there.. Ciro Ferrera was just a kid in his first season in 1984 just playing handfull of games and Bagni (and i know you will say who he is ? ) was the only semi-known player as a midfielder.. they had no one .. other names followed after Maradona came & transformed the team completely still those names were relatively unknown like Carnavle , Di Napoli who both joined a year after Maradona took serie A by storm.. Careca & Maradona later partner in crime joined Napoli 3 years after Maradona moved there so was Alemao..
in terms of today imagine Messi moving to Elche.. suddenly next season Elche finish third in the league due to his presence ... than winning the league than winning UEFA cup (when it was a worthy trophy due to only league winners playing in the champions league )
facing Juve's Platini-Boniek and the formidable defense they had, Inter's Rummenigge , Zico's Udinese , Roma's Falcao & Cerezo etc and Milan's Maldini-Baresi - Ruud-Van Basten-Rijkaard - Costacurta without going into other names because people forget that Serie A was the super league during the 80's with all the world superstars lining up in several teams...

With the greatest respect I have to totally disagree with your post, it really doesn't match up to the facts.

First of all it's nothing like Messi moving to Elche. In the early 80's Napoli were finsihing 3rd and 4th. They were high above Elches level.

Secondly you mentioned elsewhere that the other clubs in Italy ( from the North ) had all the money... Napoli were supercharged with money in the 80's. You are forgetting something pretty big here, Maradona went to Napoli for a world record transfer fee.

 

[Beast]

With the greatest respect I have to totally disagree with your post, it really doesn't match up to the facts.

First of all it's nothing like Messi moving to Elche. In the early 80's Napoli were finsihing 3rd and 4th. They were high above Elches level.

Secondly you mentioned elsewhere that the other clubs in Italy ( from the North ) had all the money... Napoli were supercharged with money in the 80's. You are forgetting something pretty big here, Maradona went to Napoli for a world record transfer fee.

It's quite easy man.. first the Napoli remaining team of the 70's which was good .. second don't be fooled by the standings because you forget the Totonero scandal
the 1980 season squad was the last remaining of the good 70's team most of them were getting old and by the time Maradona moved in 85 they were all long gone
needless to say many of those teams involved in the scandal were either deducted points or relegated like AC Milan which affected naturally the standings.. it was very hard times for some of the teams losing many players like Giordano (who was at Lazio at that time) who formed later a partnership with Maradona when he moved to Napoli and Paolo Rossi of course

that's not early 80's that was the first 2 years of the 1980's by 1983 Napoli was almost relegated as i mentioned escaping relegation by 2 points in 83 & 1 point in 1984.. Maradona moved in 1985

If Elche is the problem as a name.. name any other out of top 6 ... i think Getafe would be suitable pick.. Tomato /Tomato ...
They had a surprise cash injection.. don't forget it was just Maradona until summer 1986.. for 10 Million .. where is the super charge here ? it was a record fee by the standards of that time but they bought no one else worth any big value the rest of the players were too middle of the road names who mostly build their name off the back of Maradona and cost Napoli peanuts..and mostly came over the years like Careca in 87 , Giordano 85, Di Napoli in 86 .. nothing like you see with both our clubs , City or PSG.. so i don't think the super charged is in place there was no i have money and i'm buying a full new squad

 

[Iarwain]

Yes and i said taken Serie A by storm before they arrived .. the 2 years before Maradona arrived Napoli was 1 point & 2 points away from Relegation.. Suddenly Maradona made them a pain in everyone butt .. scoring enough goals to come third in the goal scoring charts and beating the likes of Inter & holding the powerful house Juve.. we are talking about 1 player alone with a 19 year old promising defender... no more no less .. look at Juve & co lineup

So you just forgot that in the same season they bought Maradona (when they finished 8th), they also brought:

- Salvatore Bagni from Inter: finished 4th in Serie A and was integral in that team (among the players with most minutes played in that season), had NT caps before arriving to Napoli
- Daniel Bertoni from 3rd placed Fiorentina: Argentinia NT player, won Argentinian league, 3 x Copa Libertadores, 1 x World Cup (scored in a WC final), 3 x Copa Interamerica before coming to Napoli...

Season after that (when they finished 3rd):

- Claudio Garella from title-winner Verona: 16 cleans sheets in title winning season with Verona, 16 clean sheets in title winning season with Napoli.
- Alessandro Renica from 4th placed Sampdoria (Coppa Italia champions)
- Bruno Giordano

Title winning season:

- Andrea Carnevale (second goal scorer in title winning season, better minutes-per-goal ratio than Maradona)
- Fernando de Napoli (just came to Napoli after playing all games for Italy at WC1986)

But I guess thpse were no-names and their arrivals were not so important.

we are talking about 1 player alone with a 19 year old promising defender

Lol. Are you talking about Ferrara? He played 151 mins in Maradona's first season and 574 mins in his second, compared to Maradona's 2700 and 2610. I'm starting to think you have no idea what you're talking about.

Yes they Mafia supplied the money but unlike now it was just one player...

It wasn't about one player.

Out of 10 players with most minutes played in their title-winning season, 7 of them came with or after Maradona's arrival. Only 3 players were there when Maradona arrived. I guess he couldn't "inspire" scrubs he found at the club, so asked his Mafia friends to find him some new boys.

it also took a lot of balls for Maradona as Napoli was a true nobody.. no one dared to do such a thing

Lol. So was City. Then they got the money.

- Yes you are right I meant the next season after the 8th they went up to third...

Of course I am right. They needed time and some transfer hit/miss activity to build a competitive team.

 

[Raed]

Despite all what can be said, Maradona is a polarizing figure, Messi is not. Just because he is a magician with the ball at his feet, he has no leadership skills, a very introverted player doesn't lead Argentina and will yield when faced with more staunch opposition. Maradona changes people's mentality, for better or worse. But he has this ability. Other introverts in my opinion are Raul, Xavi, Iker. Those players are club figures, but not the type to look for a morale boost, players who command respect and demand authority, get it, and live up to it.

Most Messi fans look at his accomplishments and his technical abilities which are undoubted. He is the most talented (lacks flair), most intelligent and consistent footballer I have ever witnessed (edges Ronaldo of BRA because of his accomplishments) and perhaps more gifted than Maradona but he will never shape the mentality of a team. This, for many football spectators, is perhaps a huge marker against Messi especially for the NT.

Thing is, he has played well for Argentina, and his team mates let him down, all his loses in the finals have been good and his talent or his reputation has curbed the opposition, all the loses are extremely narrow and the argument is that his team mates missed but for the GOAT these games should have never went down to the wire.

 

[barcanuck]

 

[Beast]

So you just forgot that in the same season they bought Maradona (when they finished 8th), they also brought:

- Salvatore Bagni from Inter: finished 4th in Serie A and was integral in that team (among the players with most minutes played in that season), had NT caps before arriving to Napoli
- Daniel Bertoni from 3rd placed Fiorentina: Argentinia NT player, won Argentinian league, 3 x Copa Libertadores, 1 x World Cup (scored in a WC final), 3 x Copa Interamerica before coming to Napoli...

Season after that (when they finished 3rd):

- Claudio Garella from title-winner Verona: 16 cleans sheets in title winning season with Verona, 16 clean sheets in title winning season with Napoli.
- Alessandro Renica from 4th placed Sampdoria (Coppa Italia champions)
- Bruno Giordano

Title winning season:

- Andrea Carnevale (second goal scorer in title winning season, better minutes-per-goal ratio than Maradona)
- Fernando de Napoli (just came to Napoli after playing all games for Italy at WC1986)

But I guess thpse were no-names and their arrivals were not so important.


Lol. Are you talking about Ferrara? He played 151 mins in Maradona's first season and 574 mins in his second, compared to Maradona's 2700 and 2610. I'm starting to think you have no idea what you're talking about.



It wasn't about one player.

Out of 10 players with most minutes played in their title-winning season, 7 of them came with or after Maradona's arrival. Only 3 players were there when Maradona arrived. I guess he couldn't "inspire" scrubs he found at the club, so asked his Mafia friends to find him some new boys.


Lol. So was City. Then they got the money.


Of course I am right. They needed time and some transfer hit/miss activity to build a competitive team.

Good thing the mods moved this away from Messi thread...

I'm going to go with you point by point

1984

- Bagni... good player.. nothing to talk about here.. he was good not a superstar by any means and i'm quite sure neither you or anyone in this forum ever heard about him before now but you make like he was a big deal for Napoli .. the fact that his best times were with Napoli not with Inter says it all ..

_ Bertoni one of the known names in Argentina 1978 (6 years before moving to Napoli ) winning squad.. came to Napoli in the twilight of his career at the age of 29/30... superstar bought ? certainly not unless you have no clue what you are talking about. Bertoni even last involvement with the Argentina national team was 1982.. he never played again... i'll leave you to figure out why ... the fact is from WC 1978 till 1982 Bertoni played a total 8 games for Argentina in 4 years... i'll leave it to your intelligence to know why it was nothing to talk about ...

So 3 players with Maradona ... in a new squad..

1985
Garella the 30 year old Goal keeper i'm sure he cost them a lot at this age.. good keeper that never played even for Italy ...

Renica .. a young 22 year old defender.. nothing fancy not a big name ..

Giordano .. Part of the Ma-Gi-Ca later on... bought from the returning to Serie A Lazio after a ban for almost 2 years and a year in Serie B where he became the top scorer in second division and one top flight season with Lazio and back again with his team to Serie B.. the fact that they bought him off the relegated Lazio says it all..he flourished under Maradona not before

superstars to help Maradona in the house... lool

1986.. Carnevale like Giordano built his name in Napoli with Maradona influence & passes he started to make things work for him ..started his Italy international career in 1989.. 3 years later and all in all played 10 games for the Azzuri.. never capped before so yeah so much for buying superstars

Di Napoli... never did anything before moving to Napoli playing for Avellino ..again much like the above names didn't cost much and made his name with Napoli ..like Bagni both played in the world cup 1986 and went home after the first KO game so when you put it like they played ALL THE GAMES IN WC 1986 you make it as if they reached the final.. they didn't .. 2 draws against mediocre Bulgaria & Argentina , 1 win against first time South Korea and crashed out early to France 2-0 with considerable ease..

So yes you had me digging the info because i'm not a computer however next time you believe any of those are/were superstars or anything but mediocre-barely good you need to think again.. the fact that most of them failed outside Napoli/Maradona influence apart from Ferrera who went on to Juve and continued his great career says it all about how strong Napoli is .. none of them were superstars by any means not even famous and i can bet 99 % of the forum heard those names for the first time here

- Ferrera .. do you know what the term a 19 year old promising defender means ?

- 7 players over 3 years (WOW that's a lot ) mostly in the twilight of their career or mediocre .. nothing you don't see when you here Uche or Krohn-Dehli moving to Sporting/Elche /Almeria you name it... it seems you don't know who were the stars of serie A that period and none of the above made a big higlight of their careers before moving to Napoli except some of the aging players like Garella and still he wasn't a top keeper by those days standards .. the only exception was of course the established Careca who had some successful seasons in Brazil before moving to Napoli and Alemao who moved to Napol in 1988..

If you think this was a good enough team to win Serie A from the other monsters back than you need a crash course on Serie A in the 80's

 

[AnfieldEd]

With respect no one under the age of 30 will be able to realise the quality of player and strength in depth of players surrounding european and world football at that time.

In your mind when Gio lists those players you'll maybe think who? go on wikipedia look at their stats and judge them based on that plus comparing to them to today's players.

I am sorry but really you cannot appreciate back then what world class players had to go through in terms of how football has changed from then to now. Football was a lot rougher then. The tackles were allowed to fly and attacking players had a lot less protection from referees and uefa/fifa.

I'm of that opinion that great players can play in any era though so I've no doubts the best of today could be just as effective 20-30 years ago.

I'm not trying to be condescending to the people under 30 though. It is just a fact that you are too young to appreciate the golden generation of dozens upon dozens of players playing across europe at that time.

 

[Beast]

With respect no one under the age of 30 will be able to realise the quality of player and strength in depth of players surrounding european and world football at that time.

In your mind when Gio lists those players you'll maybe think who? go on wikipedia look at their stats and judge them based on that plus comparing to them to today's players.

I am sorry but really you cannot appreciate back then what world class players had to go through in terms of how football has changed from then to now. Football was a lot rougher then. The tackles were allowed to fly and attacking players had a lot less protection from referees and uefa/fifa.

I'm of that opinion that great players can play in any era though so I've no doubts the best of today could be just as effective 20-30 years ago.

I'm not trying to be condescending to the people under 30 though. It is just a fact that you are too young to appreciate the golden generation of dozens upon dozens of players playing across europe at that time.

This.

 

[Iarwain]

- Bagni... good player.. nothing to talk about here.. he was good not a superstar by any means and i'm quite sure neither you or anyone in this forum ever heard about him before now but you make like he was a big deal for Napoli .. the fact that his best times were with Napoli not with Inter says it all ..

Where did I imply he was a superstar? You didn't mention any of the players that arrived with or after Maradona as if they were no-names and had no singificance in Napoli success.

_ Bertoni one of the known names in Argentina 1978 (6 years before moving to Napoli ) winning squad.. came to Napoli in the twilight of his career at the age of 29/30... superstar bought ? certainly not unless you have no clue what you are talking about. Bertoni even last involvement with the Argentina national team was 1982.. he never played again... i'll leave you to figure out why ... the fact is from WC 1978 till 1982 Bertoni played a total 8 games for Argentina in 4 years... i'll leave it to your intelligence to know why it was nothing to talk about ...

Was he anonymous player? Why didn't you mention that Napoli brought few other important players with Maradona and that that team wasn't relegation side anymore.

1985
Garella the 30 year old Goal keeper i'm sure he cost them a lot at this age.. good keeper that never played even for Italy ...

A keeper from Serie A CHAMPION. Had 16 clean sheets with Verona in their title-winning season (30 games), had 16 clean sheets (from 32 games) in Napoli winning season. But he was not important at all, it was all about Maradona, right?

His 16 clean sheets in their first ever title-winning season weren't important, but Maradona's 10 goals were (0 against TOP4 sides).

Renica .. a young 22 year old defender.. nothing fancy not a big name ..

I'm not even implying he was fancy or big name. Just an important ARRIVAL.

Giordano .. Part of the Ma-Gi-Ca later on... bought from the returning to Serie A Lazio after a ban for almost 2 years and a year in Serie B where he became the top scorer in second division and one top flight season with Lazio and back again with his team to Serie B.. the fact that they bought him off the relegated Lazio says it all..he flourished under Maradona not before

He was top-scorer of Serie A before Napoli. He was experienced Serie A player that was an IMPORTANT ARRIVAL.

1986.. Carnevale like Giordano built his name in Napoli with Maradona influence & passes he started to make things work for him ..started his Italy international career in 1989.. 3 years later and all in all played 10 games for the Azzuri.. never capped before so yeah so much for buying superstars

Important and influental arrival.

Di Napoli... never did anything before moving to Napoli playing for Avellino

He played the whole 1986 World Cup for Italy, BEFORE playing a single game for Napoli. But, yeah, whatever you say, he was some random no-name.

and made his name with Napoli ..like Bagni both played in the world cup 1986 and went home after the first KO game so when you put it like they played ALL THE GAMES IN WC 1986 you make it as if they reached the final.. they didn't .. 2 draws against mediocre Bulgaria & Argentina , 1 win against first time South Korea and crashed out early to France 2-0 with considerable ease..

They got selected in their best National selection even before their Napoli success. They had solid reputation before their success with Napoli, that's the point.

So yes you had me digging the info because i'm not a computer however next time you believe any of those are/were superstars or anything but mediocre-barely good you need to think again..

Nowhere did I imply they were SUPERSTARS. I was only suggesting Napoli gradually reassembled and strenghtened their squad and that team wasn't relegation side they were before Maradona.

the fact that most of them failed outside Napoli/Maradona

Most of them were way past their prime after '91. What's interesting that some of them had some success before Napoli but you failed to mention it because it's conflicting with your myth about "relegation side" Maradona led to title.

- Ferrera .. do you know what the term a 19 year old promising defender means ?

You said Maradona took Serie A by the storm, BEFORE winning title. That means: season 1984/85 and 1985/86. You explicitly said it was because of Maradona and 19-year old promising defender. Their minutes played in those two seasons they "took Serie A by the storm":

Maradona: 2700 + 2610
Ferrara: 151 + 574

Your literal quote: "we are talking about 1 player alone with a 19 year old promising defender"

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

- 7 players over 3 years (WOW that's a lot ) mostly in the twilight of their career or mediocre

There were other arrivals, I only mentioned those that took part and were influental in winning the title in 87. They had transfer misses too, as all clubs have. The point is it took them time to assemble competitive squad, some arrivals slotted in the team, other arrivals flopped. We're not talking about "relegation side" here anymore.

7 out of 10 players with most minutes played in their title-winning seasons were brought players (came with or after Maradona). But you didn't mention it since it contradicts with your myth about "Maradona leading relegation side to a title".

7/10

.. nothing you don't see when you here Uche or Krohn-Dehli moving to Sporting/Elche /Almeria you name it...

Does Uche or Kron-Dehli play for the Champion of Spain, or the 3rd and 4th placed team in Spain (as did Garella, Bertoni and Bagni in Italy)?

Does Sporting/Elche/Almeria have FINANCIAL POWER to break down world record transfer fee to bring worlds best player in their team (as did Napoli with Maradona)?

It's time for you to stop with this childish analogy, mate.

it seems you don't know who were the stars of serie A that period

I'm not even implying they were STARS, mate. I'm talking about the SQUAD that fought relegation and the squad that fought for the title.

and none of the above made a big higlight of their careers before moving to Napoli

Lol. According to Beast here, these are not significant career highlights for a player:

- winning WC
- scoring a goal in a WC final
- winning Serie A (a keeper with 16 clean sheets)
- being Top Scorer of Serie A
- winning Copa Libertadores 3x

except some of the aging players like Garella and still he wasn't a top keeper by those days standards

Lol, even in todays football age of 30 is perfectly OK for a goalkeeper. Some even say they hit their prime after 30.

If you think this was a good enough team to win Serie A from the other monsters back than you need a crash course on Serie A in the 80's

Yes, they assebled a competitive team, it was no more "relegation side". And it was by no means Maradona + 10 scrubs as your myth imply.

I'm not implying they were dream team or that those players were superstars, don't even know why you bring that up constantly.

My point is they restructured the squad and gradually made it more competitive, it was no relegation side as your myth implies.

 

[Raed]

All this to prove Maradona wasn't better than Messi? Messi played on a team that was resurrected by Ronaldinho, Deco, Eto'o, Guily, Edmilson, and a bunch of international players that helped Xavi, Puyol, Victor, shine.

What Messi did was rely on the leadership of those around him and allowed him to focus on his football, like the technical side of things and he excelled beyond anyone's imagations, surrounded by World Cup champions and renowned internationals. Take him out of this properly set up environment and begins to sulk, he is mentally fragile compared to Maradonna, not to say that he is mentally fragile.

Having Messi on your team is not the same as having Maradona on your team. The former is more talented, the latter is more encouraging. With Argentina, you need players who are strong and with a special type of character, Messi isn't that.

 

[Iarwain]

Football was a lot rougher then. The tackles were allowed to fly and attacking players had a lot less protection from referees and uefa/fifa.

I earlier posted a video (Gentile vs Maradona) that's being used as main evidence of 80s rough defending era, and there you have:
- defender getting a yellow for clearly tackling the ball from Maradona
- Maradona diving during set piece set-up and holding his face (Busquets style) until defender got yellow (no indication on video he got hit in the face)
- Maradona diving with both hands up the air (Robben style) at the edge of the box and getting a free kick

All from the same game.

I like how you point out how football was rougher then, but fail to mention any other difference in the game between then an now. Look, for example, what Van Basten himself said (and this guy knows what 80s era defending is):

“I played against Maradona and he was a great player like Messi too. There is a big difference between 25 years ago and now, though.”

Maradona and Van Basten had more space to play in, and the game today has become much more compressed, said Van Basten.

“We had an area of maybe 40 metres by 50 metres in which we could play; now it’s so tight it’s only half of that,” he explained. “Players have lost 20 metres of space and there might be 10 players between them and the penalty area when they get the ball.

“You must have very good technique, be very clever to get through the defence, play quick one-twos. That is very, very difficult, and it’s the biggest change between then and now."

 

[Iarwain]

All this to prove Maradona wasn't better than Messi?

Err, no. I actually agree with your earlier post where you compared them as playing figures (until the last paragraph). I'm just arguing against the myth about "relegation side" Napoli and childish analogies about Messi going to Elche being the modern replica of what Maradona did.

 

[Jenks]

The Chalobah loan is a weird one. The coach doesn't seem to know anything about him.

 

[BerkeleyBernie]

Napoli just playing some wonderful football. If you are missing 1-touch a la Xavi-Barça, this is the team to watch.

These friendlies are just against scrubs, but there are nevertheless some great goals. Check out the first goal in the second game- a fantastic run and through ball followed by a no-look cut-back assist, finished with a great lob.