Tennis

[Temptation]

Anyone remembers Dustin Brown? The streets will never forget his game at Wimbledon against Rafa. The most entertaining display you'll see on a Tennis Court. Ridiculous.


It's players like these I miss a lot. True Mavericks.


Loved Del Potro's power forehands which just looked crazy on TV(even crazier in the arena irl). The Stanimal phase had some of the best groundstrokes I have seen. Those one handed backhands were wicked. He beat Peak Nole a few times with his power-hitting. Absolutely battered the ball.

 

[KingLeo10]

Stanimal and Del Potro are two of my favorite players. Insane top level on both, approaching or sometimes contending with Big 3

 

[KingLeo10]

From the football side, ZZ (for scoring huge goals in Euro KOs, CL final, WC finals etc.) and Maradona only (obvious reasons).

Messi and CR7 were at their most dominant with great players around them (I do like Messi's clutchness in this recent WC though but overall not enough). Maldini was an always second on international level with dominant Italian teams.

To me, clutchness is not about your level, but rather your level in the biggest moments relative to usual level/usual games.

Shoutout to Iniesta and Modric too. Baby faced killers.

 

[Temptation]

From the football side, ZZ (for scoring huge goals in Euro KOs, CL final, WC finals etc.) and Maradona only (obvious reasons).

Messi and CR7 were at their most dominant with great players around them (I do like Messi's clutchness in this recent WC though but overall not enough). Maldini was an always second on international level with dominant Italian teams.

To me, clutchness is not about your level, but rather your level in the biggest moments relative to usual level/usual games.

Gerrard was always super clutch for us. Has to be up there surely.


Carragher recently said: "Whenever we had no clue as a team, and that was quite often, we always just gave it to Stevie thinking 'he'll come up with something' and most of the time, he did."


That sums up most of his LFC career. The man delivered World Class performances at like 5 different positions against far superior teams on the biggest stage time and again.

So clutch.


People take the piss out of that slip thing(although we actually bottled it at Crystal Palace next Gameweek) but my god, the man was always there in the big occasions.


Consistently dragged a bang average team throughout his career. One of the only English players respected highly by the foreign Football scholars and Hispanic Football stars who don't rate English Footballers that highly.

 

[Rory]

@Rory


Off the top of my head, players like CR7, Zidane, Drogba, Eto'o, Maradona, Gerrard, Pele, Ramos, Maldini, Robson, Souness would make it I guess.

Disagree. Think this is another case of standards for Messi being far higher than others. Scored more goals in finals than any other player. Not to mention recent WC. I could go on

 

[Temptation]

Disagree. Think this is another case of standards for Messi being far higher than others. Scored more goals in finals than any other player. Not to mention recent WC. I could go on

No one is calling him a bottler but he has infamously had his moments of succumbing under pressure plenty of times.


Ofcourse, he'll still have decent stats because he's a GOAT who played in one of the greatest teams ever in Barca's golden period winning trophies left, right and centre.


But he has never been especially clutch and had to battle mentality demons in big moments for a while. He overcame his penalty fears in this WC. Ofcourse, he had his moments in big games as a young man too, that performance against Yanited and Real in the semis and so on.


But when your team has their backs against the wall, he's not the guy who'll drag you back in the face of adversity. You need a certain form of leadership, character and willpower for that which he hasn't always had.

 

[Horatio]

Taylor B*tch overrated called it.

 

[Javier Zanetti - fraud]

Taylor B*tch overrated called it.

Cerundolo BOAT

 

[Rory]

No one is calling him a bottler but he has infamously had his moments of succumbing under pressure plenty of times.


Ofcourse, he'll still have decent stats because he's a GOAT who played in one of the greatest teams ever in Barca's golden period winning trophies left, right and centre.


But he has never been especially clutch and had to battle mentality demons in big moments for a while. He overcame his penalty fears in this WC. Ofcourse, he had his moments in big games as a young man too, that performance against Yanited and Real in the semis and so on.


But when your team has their backs against the wall, he's not the guy who'll drag you back in the face of adversity. You need a certain form of leadership, character and willpower for that which he hasn't always had.

Same can be said for any of the players you mentioned though imo. All failed at certain points in careers, at certain high pressure moments. No player is clutch throughout their career. Stevie Gs slip e.g. Allowing crystal palace to come back from 3-0 when title is in his hands.

 

[Temptation]

Same can be said for any of the players you mentioned though imo. All failed at certain points in careers, at certain high pressure moments. No player is clutch throughout their career. Stevie Gs slip e.g. Allowing crystal palace to come back from 3-0 when title is in his hands.

A lot of it is just perception and impression you leave on the masses. You craft a reputation based on a certain period. A lot of it is pure luck and things falling into the right place.


Some players tend to have a more clutch reputation. I'm sure RL9 has way better stats than most players in big games and knockouts but due to perception by certain people, players with worse stats in big game are seen as more clutch. It's the same with Messi.


Some players are just too clutch in certain types of games and simply catch your eye like Drogba in finals, CR7 in CL knockouts, etc.


I hope you're getting my point. It's not rational and it's not even 100% factually correct but a lot of these things are just perceptions peddled by the media and fans in popular culture. Football fans aren't the smartest.


Vocal leadership, character and loud personalities sell well in this regard. The fans lap it up.


What I am saying might sound crazy to you but think about it, a part of it is about the image, innit?

 

[Temptation]

Rory here's an example for you, till only a few years ago people didn't realise what a massive bottler Zlatan was because of the "I'm Lion" and mentality BS he sells. Only recently people realised his tremendous record as a magician in the CL with his go-to trick being: Vanishing and disappearing completely in the big CL games.



Haaland sells a similar brand of personality to the media so there's a perception in some circles that he's almost as clutch as Mbappe which is utter rubbish since Mbappe has scored against every big club and country in the biggest stages already at his age.

 

[Rory]

A lot of it is just perception and impression you leave on the masses. You craft a reputation based on a certain period. A lot of it is pure luck and things falling into the right place.


Some players tend to have a more clutch reputation. I'm sure RL9 has way better stats than most players in big games and knockouts but due to perception by certain people, players with worse stats in big game are seen as more clutch. It's the same with Messi.


Some players are just too clutch in certain types of games and simply catch your eye like Drogba in finals, CR7 in CL knockouts, etc.


I hope you're getting my point. It's not rational and it's not even 100% factually correct but a lot of these things are just perceptions peddled by the media and fans in popular culture. Football fans aren't the smartest.


Vocal leadership, character and loud personalities sell well in this regard. The fans lap it up.


What I am saying might sound crazy to you but think about it, a part of it is about the image, innit?

Right, so it's more about who is perceived to be a clutch player instead of who is one? Thought the conversation was bypassing that sort of stuff and going into who genuinely is one. E.g. Ronaldo has missed some hugely important penalties in his time, and 0 g+a in the world cup knockouts. And yet is labelled as clutch. Makes no sense to me. I don't think football has ever had a truly clutch player. Zidane mentioned but would argue Ronaldo/Messi have more clutch moments.

Also would disagree Haaland sells that same brand to the media. He's been nothing but down to earth in interviews I've seen.

 

[Javier Zanetti - fraud]

Counting the last days of the tennis debate.

 

[Horatio]

I miss Kyrgios. Prolly one of the most talented, just needs to maintain focus.

 

[Temptation]

Think people overrate Kyrgios' ability these days. He's talented and if he put in work would consistently be a top 10 player reaching QFs and sometimes Semis. All the talk of him having the potential of a GS winner or number 1 candidate is a joke though.


He doesn't have the Top Level of dudes like Murray, JMDP, Stan, etc. At best he can be around David Ferrer level(with way more flair obviously).