The Negreira case

Barcelonista001

New signing
I started to think we are hiding the evidence for a bigger picture…. Or the evidence itself could harm More than one party actually that includes wither local institutions or international, this calm amd also xavi answer in the press today is weird, thos could be an actual tactic to put the spot on barca and not on madrid
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
From what I can see...

Court moved away from corruption charges as cant find any evidence of money paid to referees. Barca have then not provided their 'evidence' of what service they received as the onus is on proving guilt not innocence.

They have now tried to bring charges for 'bribery' of a public official where paying him that money is crime enough and would need to explain way out of it.

Barca as mentioned earlier most likely now challenge if Negreira is a public official and if this charge can even be brought.

This 'bribery' charge also works for the league etc as allows them to escape the idea their league has been corrupted.
 

serghei

Senior Member
For bribery, almost surely the burden of proof is on the prosecution. Innocent until proven guilty is not some advertising motto. Barcelona already explained probably what the money were for. If the prosecution doesn't believe the reason is true, they need to come up with what they think happened and prove it.

For the sake of Spanish football I hope there is nothing in this case that indicates the referees are corrupt.
 

ajnotkeith

Senior Member
Yes but should Barca have provided those CDs/Reports by now? Is that legally what should have happend?

Or could it be that Barca have been told to hold tight on the evidence they have for now as on other side to prove it and not Barca prove their innocence?
The court formally requested Barca provide the documents as part of the investigation and that if they didn't the court would order a search of the Barcelona offices to get them by force.

Barca still have not provided the documents despite being asked to do so by a court. It is likely that the police will search FCB offices soon as part of the new charge to try and obtain these documents.

So Barca were obliged to provide it under threat of police raiding the FCB offices (a huge embarrassment) and didn't do so which to me says a lot. The directors are making the police have to come and tear up the FCB buildings to get them instead of just cooperating which would be less embarrassing than a full search. This says to me whatever it is damages their defense somehow.
Paying to make sure things are neutral does not always mean 'paying to influence the decisions of referees' though and likely does not come down that far as league will protect themselves saying there was no influence but attempt at 'bribery' was there.

Paying to make sure things are nuetral can be in form of referee reports across all the games etc and making sure other clubs not getting more incorrect decsions in their favour and if are then club need to highlight it etc.
I don't think directly any referees are paid off nor was that the plan. In his role as vice president he had say in some decisions that were made about Spanish refereeing in general, that is to say, he could directly influence refereeing in Spain through his function as vice president of the CTA. He stated that his role included rating referees after games, which is something that can lead to the promotion or demotion of a referee, essentially meaning he had a large say in which referees were gotten rid of and which weren't, that is clearly a direct way he could influence and favour teams in Spanish refereeing. An example would be him rating referees favourable to Barca's style of play highly and therefore ensuring they were promoted or remained in LaLiga, or getting rid of referees who favour Madrid (not that it did or didn't happen, but that is an example to say he himself had power to influence refereeing).

It is clear that someone with such a power cannot work for any club in the league because they are required to be impartial in their duties. Whatever the work consists of (even if Barca are somehow telling the truth about paying 8 million for reports) this still wouldnt be allowed. This is why the charge of bribery is a given.

However, Negreira goes on to say in those declarations that he is referring particularly to his role as Vice President of the CTA and not about referee reports or incorrect decisions being highlighted in games :

Investigator : Is there any document, report or similar that includes the conclusions of the refereeing advice provided through DASNIL to Fútbol Club Barcelona?

Negreira : No (So he doesn't have any records of these reports either... notice a pattern??)

Investigator: So if you only met at most 6 times a year and there were no written reports, why were they paying the amounts invoiced by DASNIL, which are as follows? (Table of payments is shown for Negreira)

EN : "Porque así estaban tranquilos de que en el comité arbitral no había decisiones en contra del Fútbol Club Barcelona, que todo era neutral"

"Because in this way, they could be sure that in the arbitration committee (the CTA) there were not decisions made against Barcelona, that everything was neutral".

You can see, he specifically says, "en el comité arbitral" (the CTA). This is to say, that his version of events is that Barca paid him to influence CTA decisions in his role as Vice President of the CTA, something which would constitute corruption.
Big leap to make out Negreira has said 'Barca paid to influence referee decisions' directly through money paid.

What do you think Barca were paying him to do and how?
He said that directly, he said Barca paid him to influence decisions in the refereeing committee (as quoted there above).
I think Barca were paying him as a 'man on the inside' to use his influence to lobby for Barca's interests. That is not paying off a field referee directly to fix one or two games, or key games, but to try and make sure that decisions taken about Spanish refereeing in general would favour Barca or, as Negreira puts it 'to ensure everything was neutral'.

This is later discussed in the same Treasury documents where they questioned him - he says, amongst other tasks, that Barcelona asked him to try and make sure that the Competition Committee was not made up of judges from Madrid (the Competition Committee decides sanctions, suspension lengths, scheduling of fixtures... things that can be used to favour a club). If his version of events is true, it would clearly show an attempt by Barca to try and indirectly swing arbitration decisions in their favour, such as those of deciding suspension lengths, when certain fixtures are scheduled, etc.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
For bribery, almost surely the burden of proof is on the prosecution. Innocent until proven guilty is not some advertising motto.

Not so much.

They would say it is ilegal to pay a 'public official' and put onus back on Barca to justify it.

But most likely Barca argue he isnt a public official prior to any of that.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
The court formally requested Barca provide the documents as part of the investigation and that if they didn't the court would order a search of the Barcelona offices to get them by force.

Barca still have not provided the documents despite being asked to do so by a court. It is likely that the police will search FCB offices soon as part of the new charge to try and obtain these documents.

So Barca were obliged to provide it under threat of police raiding the FCB offices (a huge embarrassment) and didn't do so which to me says a lot. The directors are making the police have to come and tear up the FCB buildings to get them instead of just cooperating which would be less embarrassing than a full search. This says to me whatever it is damages their defense somehow.

I don't think directly any referees are paid off nor was that the plan. In his role as vice president he had say in some decisions that were made about Spanish refereeing in general, that is to say, he could directly influence refereeing in Spain through his function as vice president of the CTA. He stated that his role included rating referees after games, which is something that can lead to the promotion or demotion of a referee, essentially meaning he had a large say in which referees were gotten rid of and which weren't, that is clearly a direct way he could influence and favour teams in Spanish refereeing. An example would be him rating referees favourable to Barca's style of play highly and therefore ensuring they were promoted or remained in LaLiga, or getting rid of referees who favour Madrid (not that it did or didn't happen, but that is an example to say he himself had power to influence refereeing).

It is clear that someone with such a power cannot work for any club in the league because they are required to be impartial in their duties. Whatever the work consists of (even if Barca are somehow telling the truth about paying 8 million for reports) this still wouldnt be allowed. This is why the charge of bribery is a given.

However, Negreira goes on to say in those declarations that he is referring particularly to his role as Vice President of the CTA and not about referee reports or incorrect decisions being highlighted in games :

Investigator : Is there any document, report or similar that includes the conclusions of the refereeing advice provided through DASNIL to Fútbol Club Barcelona?

Negreira : No (So he doesn't have any records of these reports either... notice a pattern??)

Investigator: So if you only met at most 6 times a year and there were no written reports, why were they paying the amounts invoiced by DASNIL, which are as follows? (Table of payments is shown for Negreira)

EN : "Porque así estaban tranquilos de que en el comité arbitral no había decisiones en contra del Fútbol Club Barcelona, que todo era neutral"

"Because in this way, they could be sure that in the arbitration committee (the CTA) there were not decisions made against Barcelona, that everything was neutral".

You can see, he specifically says, "en el comité arbitral" (the CTA). This is to say, that his version of events is that Barca paid him to influence CTA decisions in his role as Vice President of the CTA, something which would constitute corruption.

He said that directly, he said Barca paid him to influence decisions in the refereeing committee (as quoted there above).
I think Barca were paying him as a 'man on the inside' to use his influence to lobby for Barca's interests. That is not paying off a field referee directly to fix one or two games, or key games, but to try and make sure that decisions taken about Spanish refereeing in general would favour Barca or, as Negreira puts it 'to ensure everything was neutral'.

This is later discussed in the same Treasury documents where they questioned him - he says, amongst other tasks, that Barcelona asked him to try and make sure that the Competition Committee was not made up of judges from Madrid (the Competition Committee decides sanctions, suspension lengths, scheduling of fixtures... things that can be used to favour a club). If his version of events is true, it would clearly show an attempt by Barca to try and indirectly swing arbitration decisions in their favour, such as those of deciding suspension lengths, when certain fixtures are scheduled, etc.

Dont agree at all.

Lets see what happens.
 

serghei

Senior Member
What's your opinion on why the money was paid?

Whatever the hypothesis, it seems clear 8 million wasn't paid for only basic refereeing reports, that's a service that is a lot cheaper than that.

Could be a scheme to get money out of the club and into the pocket of some officials. Something of a money laudering benefiting some board members instead of the club.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
What's your opinion on why the money was paid?

Whatever the hypothesis, it seems clear 8 million wasn't paid for only basic refereeing reports, that's a service that is a lot cheaper than that.

Lets see .. I dont agree with much of what you claim there and dont think he had the influence as is made out.

Time will tell and dont agree that trying to make sure things are 'nuetral' is seeking to gain Barca an advantage over others.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
Could be a scheme to get money out of the club and into the pocket of some officials. Something of a money laudering benefiting some board members instead of the club.

That already happened most likely and would be easier ways for it.

Some of the shit Barca have spent money on in last couple decades could easily be used to funnel money out.
 

ajnotkeith

Senior Member
Could be a scheme to get money out of the club and into the pocket of some officials. Something of a money laudering benefiting some board members instead of the club.
The Tax Agency said that its likely a lot of the money ended up elsewhere because Negreira's assets didn't increase proportionally with all the money.

They investigated whether it could have gone to referees but that didn't bring up any evidence so they discarded that possibility.

So then they stated that they think Negreira potentially was laundering money with the directors of the club, in absence of knowing where the money actually went, that it seems probable it could have returned to officials of the club.

But laundering money with a refereeing official makes no sense because you add charges of sports corruption to money laundering. Surely you would just pick a regular guy instead of VP of the CTA?? That's the thread that doesn't make sense for me there.
There is a whole lot to explain obviously and a lot of things we still dont know. We need a full trial to eludicate those and fill in the many holes that there are.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
There were stories from those around him that he frittered the money away as burned a hole in pocket and would take out in cash a certain amount at a time to avoid investigation.

Flash Harry constantly spending it away.

Averaged at just over 400k a year or so. Its a lot but can soon be wasted and also his son at least taking some of that.

I believe that the corruption angle wiil go as he had such little influence at all on the referees and being one of many who grades referees doesnt have nearly the influence some make out. It is very difficult within that to falsely rate refs to point has any real impact on league.

Also it protects the league from all the implications of any corruption taking place.

Being stripped back to 'attempt' to bribe a public official.
 

vuji_31

Senior Member
Imagine how sad situation is when madiddgos are th
The Tax Agency said that its likely a lot of the money ended up elsewhere because Negreira's assets didn't increase proportionally with all the money.

They investigated whether it could have gone to referees but that didn't bring up any evidence so they discarded that possibility.

So then they stated that they think Negreira potentially was laundering money with the directors of the club, in absence of knowing where the money actually went, that it seems probable it could have returned to officials of the club.

But laundering money with a refereeing official makes no sense because you add charges of sports corruption to money laundering. Surely you would just pick a regular guy instead of VP of the CTA?? That's the thread that doesn't make sense for me there.
There is a whole lot to explain obviously and a lot of things we still dont know. We need a full trial to eludicate those and fill in the many holes that there are.
I don't know what they were paying but they cheated us badly, we lost 2 titles, 2014 and 2017 just from referee mistakes.

 

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