Vitor Roque (loaned to Real Betis)

ZenI

Professor Balthazar
@Porque Can someone tell me why this dude was worth 40 million, because i saw nothing special on the stats or the few games, any brazilian here?
Just the usual social media hype? Because their talents have been mid since some time, and massively overpriced, it seems like the scouts with knowledge realized fast.
Might as well just buy every brazilian kid that does some tricks on youtube.

It would be hilarious if Guiu becomes a top striker in the end instead.
He isn't worth 40M, not even close - that's the answer. Also, he wasn't even a social media hype - his YouTube "highlights" sucked :lol:
Xavi didn't rate him and Flick didn't rate him - soon Betis won't rate him... trust me he'll be back as soon as they can send him back. I think he might end up in Championship for a couple of millions, IF he improves a couple of things.
 

Ter Stature

New member
He isn't worth 40M, not even close - that's the answer. Also, he wasn't even a social media hype - his YouTube "highlights" sucked :lol:
Xavi didn't rate him and Flick didn't rate him - soon Betis won't rate him... trust me he'll be back as soon as they can send him back. I think he might end up in Championship for a couple of millions, IF he improves a couple of things.
Dude has like 100k followers on sofascore, so there must have been some hype in brazil.
And damn, is there any info on the scout who signed this guy? Is it possibly the same guy that got el Tiburon for 50 million too?
 

Porque

Senior Member
@Porque Can someone tell me why this dude was worth 40 million, because i saw nothing special on the stats or the few games, any brazilian here?
Just the usual social media hype? Because their talents have been mid since some time, and massively overpriced, it seems like the scouts with knowledge realized fast.
Might as well just buy every brazilian kid that does some tricks on youtube.

It would be hilarious if Guiu becomes a top striker in the end instead.

Because his goalscoring rate was in the top 1% of young strikers in Brasileiro.

Meanwhile Paranaense had one of the lowest chance creation and possession (and passing) stats in the whole league.

So the theory was that if he is that productive at Paranaense, imagine what he would produce at a better side. And his technical limitations were overlooked.

In the end he went for 30m, plus 30m in ridiculous clauses. But 30m is fine for a club with normal finances.

And watching Vitor Roque's game, if will probably turn out good around 23/24+. We just got him way to early without the time and patience to mold him. Probably the wrong profile for us too technically.
 

malvolio

Senior Member
And watching Vitor Roque's game, if will probably turn out good around 23/24+. We just got him way to early without the time and patience to mold him. Probably the wrong profile for us too technically.
Is this some sort of politically correctness trend that I don't get? What's wrong in saying the guy is shit? You're afraid of backlash if he actually turns good or just some form of idiotic way of saying something in between as to not offend anyone?

Don't have a problem with you personally, saw many other users post like this, in various threads.
 

Maradona37

Well-known member
Is this some sort of politically correctness trend that I don't get? What's wrong in saying the guy is shit? You're afraid of backlash if he actually turns good or just some form of idiotic way of saying something in between as to not offend anyone?

Don't have a problem with you personally, saw many other users post like this, in various threads.
Yeah I have noticed that football fans these days make all the excuses under the sun to delude themselves someone has hope as a player - he's coming back from injury, he's young, his team-mates won't pass to him, it's his first season in a new country etc. It happens a lot on Redcafe, their top red posters are currently twisting themselves in knots telling themselves that Onana and Hojlund aren't poor players, to give two examples.

Now these mitigating factors do have some merit, don't get me wrong. There might be cases where there genuinely is hope. But it's generally pretty easy (or is for me) to see if a player 'has it' or not, despite all these extenuating circumstances. I haven't watched the player in question (that this thread is about) but I have saw so many excuses made for players who predictably ended up failing anyway. Man United fans are VERY bad for this coping, excuse-making style of posting. It's VERY rare that a player is an awful or average player and then suddenly becomes top class. It happens far far less often than people think. Usually if someone is good you can tell by age 22 at the latest.

A good example is Rashford. He's just a poor player technically who will always flatter to deceive. It's nothing to do with the situation surrounding him - it's simply who he is as a footballer - moody, inconsistent, poor technically. It won't change. He's already 27 so he is far too old to be treated with kid gloves. But people tie themselves in knots making excuses for the reality (that he isn't good enough) e.g. he's depressed, he isn't committed enough, he blows hot and cold, his team-mates aren't good enough, he's upset because his dog has toothache etc. Sometimes the obvious explanation is the right one - many players simply aren't good enough to help a team win top trophies, because the truly elite players are few and far between (which is why they're elite).

People shouldn't be afraid to take a side. You don't have to watch a player for years and years or wait until he's 26 or 27 to know if he has it or not. It's often obvious. In fact stubbornly sticking by these lost causes and refusing to admit your mistake is very harmful for clubs. Look at the excuses United fans and board made for Aaron Wan-Bissaka. He fucked up for years and should have been gone much earlier than he was. Ditto Harry Maguire who is still getting a game and fucking up. Players like that have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt they won't suddenly become great players so why bother? Of course wages etc play a part too, but still.
 
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Porque

Senior Member
Is this some sort of politically correctness trend that I don't get? What's wrong in saying the guy is shit? You're afraid of backlash if he actually turns good or just some form of idiotic way of saying something in between as to not offend anyone?

Don't have a problem with you personally, saw many other users post like this, in various threads.

Honestly, I got it wrong about Vitor judging from his whole, but short, time in Spain. I knew his technical level was weak watching in Paranaense, but didn't think it would be this glaringly poor after the adaption period.

But what I am saying is these things take time. You can look at a number of Brazilian forwards who took baby steps to adapt to Europe and then eventually got bigger moves than what Roque cost flat fee (Richarlison, Joao Pedro, Evanilson, Igor Tomas).

All of these showed less in Brazil than Roque, and bar Pedro have even featured and scored less than Roque at Betis. You don't score at his goal rate in Brazil by accident.

The only issue is that we put Roque under a huge microscope and gave more pressure to a player of his talent level should have been put under. Myself included.

So yeah, nothing wrong in saying after a few more years of playing that he can be a top player and also that the Barca move was too early for him.
 

Joan

Well-known member
It's usually easy to bet against a player who doesn't hit it off from the start. Much more often than not, you'd be right. But that doesn't really get you far. Especially if you're a club playing it safe and praising only Yamal level performers.

Recognising that someone has certain talents and qualities that might enable him to turn the tide in the future can be a more illuminating process than saying the guy's shit. Even though he currently might be.

As for Roque, I have higher hopes for him now after seeing his Betis highlights than before. Still likely he doesn't make it and remains a bum but can see him succeed on some level too.
 

draconifire

NTC with a Positive attitude
I will reiterate what I said before. He looks to be a typically Italian-style poacher, suited for that league.

He should have been bought 6 months later, and should have been directly loaned out. As of now, the guy is of no quality to be with us. Guys is still young and needs to learn quite a lot.

He has his attributes, but his overall game is not good at all to be the 3rd striker behind Lewa, and Pau Victor. Give the guy a couple of seasons of loan, and see if he develops his game. If he does, I believe he can be a very good striker for us.

But it is not now. That's at least 3-4 seasons later.
 

Messi983

Senior Member
Even now he would be more useful off the bench than Ferran. You want to press for full 90 minutes, you bring him on against tired defenders and he would create turnovers with pressing and get into positions to score.

But yeah, he needs to play regularly to develop and I'm sure in two years he'll be amongst the best young strikers in the world.


This is quite interesting.

vrrl.png



For those unfamiliar with xG Chain

Calculating xG Chain: https://statsbomb.com/2018/08/introducing-xgchain-and-xgbuildup/

Find all possessions each player is involved in
Find all shots within those possessions
Sum the xG of those shots (usually take the highest xG per possession)
Assign that sum to each player, however involved they are



It's clear he lacks end product and is not much involved in the overall buildup but when he does get involved it usually brings something positive. He's mostly there to finish off chances but he also creates for himself like against Getafe when he took the ball away from Djene.

He's still a work in progress but has all required attributes to be a pain in defenders's asses for a long time. They'll hate to play against him especially when he'll start to score from the chances he gets into which will happen sooner or later.
 
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malvolio

Senior Member
It's usually easy to bet against a player who doesn't hit it off from the start. Much more often than not, you'd be right. But that doesn't really get you far. Especially if you're a club playing it safe and praising only Yamal level performers.

Recognising that someone has certain talents and qualities that might enable him to turn the tide in the future can be a more illuminating process than saying the guy's shit. Even though he currently might be.

As for Roque, I have higher hopes for him now after seeing his Betis highlights than before. Still likely he doesn't make it and remains a bum but can see him succeed on some level too.
It wasn't a bet. I've looked at youtube reels and wasn't impressed, saw him here and understood why. Then managers proceed to dumb him no problem.

What's with all this faffing around on "recognizing qualities", he doesn't have what it takes to make it at the top, simple. Do I care if he makes at Udinese? Not for me.

Ferran got exactly the same treatment, many excuses at the beginning until nobody could defend him anymore. And tbf Ferran had way bigger clout than Roque. Now everyone calls him shit, because that's what he is - not a top footballer.
 

Porque

Senior Member
Basically the biggest red flag Roque is showing is not his build up influence (which is atrocious) but his finishing isn't natural. He snatches at shots rather than efficiently placing. If only he has more like Ansu.

Fitness wise he looks like he can cut a few kilos too. He's not Endrick or R9 fat, but there's some gristle. Just one of those typical Brazil bods.
 

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