Would you say that PSG is the 4th to 7th largest football club in Europe ?

[BBZ8800]

By that rules a club like Celtic could claim to be bigger than Arsenal or Atletico. No way is that the case.

Or is Ajax bigger club now than Arsenal? Not for me.

Too much is focused on history if we are discussing who are the biggest clubs NOW.

This is why you have a mixture of history and a current era.
Celtic was good in Europe in the past.
Today is very weak.

Arsenal was always average in Europe.
Today is still average.

Anyway, in one hand I agree with you, and that is because both history and current era should be considered, because Aston Villa, Ajax and Red Star surely aren't top clubs today.

But again, about Arsenal, you are from Scotland, imo, you are biased and bombed too much with EPL.
People who watch EPL a lot consider Arsenal as some great club.

For example, what bothers me is:
-- why is Arsenal with 3 league titles in the last 20 years and 0 CL titles, considered as the great club?
-- but Borussia with 4 league titles and 1 CL title in the last 20 years is never considered to be nowhere as near as big team as Arsenal?
-- or Lyon, with 7 league titles in the last 20 years, and 1 CL semifinals, and 3 times quarterfinals is never considered as the famous club?

I don't have anything against Arsenal, but it is the most overhyped club in the football's history.
They have done absolutely nothing on a CL level.
And in their league, they are far behind Man Utd and Chelsea in the last 20 years, and in the last 10 years, they are even behind City

So, Arsenal is the 4th EPL team, in terms of strength.
I will never understand that amount of faith and hype around them :/
They had a good generation with Henry, Bergkamp and Overmars and that's it.
Lyon had their own generation, and lots of other european teams.

Imo, English hype and English media created that mess.

 

[StarLord]

We have to have some consistent and objective criteria when making such claims.

I would suggest a scoring system of this nature:


CL title after the CL was expanded to include the Top 4 from the top leagues: 7 points

European Cup and CL before the expansion: 5 points

UEFA Cup before the expansion of the CL: 4 points

UEFA Cup after the CL expansion: 2.5 points

Cup winners Cup: 2.5 points

Inter-Cities Fairs Cup: 3 points

Major domestic league: (Spain, England, Italy and Germany) : 2 points

Lesser leagues: 1 point

UEFA Super Cup: 1 point

World Club Cup/Intercontinental Cup: 1 point

Domestic Cups: 1 point


More or less something like that.

 

[Hamzah]

I wonder what the rankings would be with that system

Btw I would get rid of domestic cups, they are not important. I'd get rid of inter cities fair cup too. And the uefa super cup.

 

[Yannik]

Not sure what "largest" means, Bayern has the most members, United has the most valuable brand and Real Madrid the most fans worldwide aswell as the highest revenue.

If we'd go by how they play football i'd say its in thsi order:

1. Barca
2. Bayern (Position depending on injury situation)
3. Madrid
4. Juventus
5. Chelsea
6. PSG
7. Atletico

 

[BBZ8800]

We have to have some consistent and objective criteria when making such claims.

I would suggest a scoring system of this nature:


CL title after the CL was expanded to include the Top 4 from the top leagues: 7 points

European Cup and CL before the expansion: 5 points

UEFA Cup before the expansion of the CL: 4 points

UEFA Cup after the CL expansion: 2.5 points

Cup winners Cup: 2.5 points

Inter-Cities Fairs Cup: 3 points

Major domestic league: (Spain, England, Italy and Germany) : 2 points

Lesser leagues: 1 point

UEFA Super Cup: 1 point

World Club Cup/Intercontinental Cup: 1 point

Domestic Cups: 1 point


More or less something like that.

A good idea:
But from your post, I would personally keep only:
1. modern CL winners
2. modern CL finalists
3. TOP 5 countries league champions (England, Spain, Germany, Italy, France)
4. smaller countries 50% of those points
5. old CL winners
6. old CL finalists

I would maybe include:
-- Uefa cup winners and Cup winners cup winners

I surely wouldn't include:
1. European supercup, because it wasn't played in the past, and it would inflate the stats from current stats
2. the same about World club's cup
3. domestic cups, for the last 10-15 years, 90% of european teams play with weakened sides and rest their players (again, except teams from UK)

Imo if we can agree only on top 6 criterias from my post, I will maybe take some time and calculate it, lol

 

[Ini8]

Not sure what "largest" means, Bayern has the most members, United has the most valuable brand and Real Madrid the most fans worldwide aswell as the highest revenue.

If we'd go by how they play football i'd say its in thsi order:

1. Barca
2. Bayern (Position depending on injury situation)
3. Madrid
4. Juventus
5. Chelsea
6. PSG
7. Atletico

Source? I'm pretty sure United have more worldwide.

 

[Vlom]

Source? I'm pretty sure United have more worldwide.

I wouldn't be surprised if RM had a HUGE jump in brand awareness/followers after they signed James, he is MASSIVE in colombia, surely that can give them the edge to pass ManU.

 

[Yannik]

Source? I'm pretty sure United have more worldwide.

then its United, idk, either them or madrid

 

[StarLord]

A good idea:
But from your post, I would personally keep only:
1. modern CL winners
2. modern CL finalists
3. TOP 5 countries league champions (England, Spain, Germany, Italy, France)
4. smaller countries 50% of those points
5. old CL winners
6. old CL finalists

I would maybe include:
-- Uefa cup winners and Cup winners cup winners

I surely wouldn't include:
1. European supercup, because it wasn't played in the past, and it would inflate the stats from current stats
2. the same about World club's cup
3. domestic cups, for the last 10-15 years, 90% of european teams play with weakened sides and rest their players (again, except teams from UK)

Imo if we can agree only on top 6 criterias from my post, I will maybe take some time and calculate it, lol

If we are to count finalists, then we should also count semi-finalists etc...

In fact, all European results should be taken into account to an extent.

And the European trophies should count significantly more than domestic ones. The CL should be more like 12 points. In any case, CL success should have a massive weight on the final ranking. We cannot erase the success of clubs like Liverpool or AC Milan that easy.

I also disagree that United are the most successful English club in Europe, since Liverpool have more CL/European Cups and more UEFAs as well.

 

[ebc_99]

Barca & Real are the 2 biggest clubs, always have been and always will be. Even in the 50s they were signing the biggest names in football and still are today. After those two come Bayern & Man Utd, they are big but not as romantic or glamorous as the Spanish.

It is almost impossible to calculate fanbase, though we regularly hear both United and Real claim they are the biggest. I did see a few surveys that tried tocalculate fanbase and they had Barca on top closely followed by Real and nobody else close. Social media is also a good indication as this table shows Real & Barca are way out in front.

Juventus are the biggest Italian club, Liverpool are also a big club though not as successful these days. After these 6 I would say it just comes down to who is successful at the time. If a billionaire were to invest in Valencia or Atletico tomorrow then all of a sudden they would move right up the list especially with their new 75,000 seater stadium.

 

[Yannik]

that social media graphic isnt really much of a reliable indication though. Here In germany for example barely anyone uses Twitter.

 

[StarLord]

that social media graphic isnt really much of a reliable indication though. Here In germany for example barely anyone uses Twitter.

Twitter is mainly an Anglosphere thing. Which makes the popularity of Barca/Real even more telling.

 

[Yannik]

Why is Mercedes listed with a GB flag there?

 

[BBZ8800]

Ok, my ranking, I tried to sum some factors for most of the Europe's major teams:
Points:
1. CL win since 1992=10 Points
2. Cl final since 1992=5 Points
3. CL win till 1992=8 Points
4. CL final till 1992=4 Points
5. A league title in Italy, Spain, England, Germany, France=2 points
6. Uefa cup or cup's winners cup=4 points
7. Uefa cup and Cwc finalists=2 points

Teams:
-- Real:
-- League: 32=64 points
-- CL wins, 1992+: 4=40 p
-- Cl finals, 1992+: -
-- CL wins, till 1992: 6=48p
-- CL finals, till 1992: 3=12p
-- Uefa cups: 2=8p
-- Uefa cups finals: -
-- Cwc winner: -
-- Cwc finalists: 2=4p
= 176 points

-- Barca:
-- League: 22=44p
-- CL wins, 1992+: 4=40
-- Cl finals, 1992+: 1=5
-- CL wins, till 1992: -
-- CL finals, till 1992: 2=6p
-- Uefa cups: -
-- Uefa cups finals: -
-- Cwc winner: 4=16p
-- Cwc finalists: 2=4p
= 115 points

-- Milan:
-- League: 18=36
-- CL wins, 1992+: 3=30p
-- Cl finals, 1992+: 3=15p
-- CL wins, till 1992: 4=32p
-- CL finals, till 1992: 1=4p
-- Uefa cups: -
-- Uefa cups finals: -
-- Cwc winner: 2=8p
-- Cwc finalists: 1=2p
= 127 points

-- Juventus:
-- League: 30=60p
-- CL wins, 1992+: 1=10
-- Cl finals, 1992+: 3=15p
-- CL wins, till 1992: 1=8
-- CL finals, till 1992: 2=8p
-- Uefa cups: 3=12p
-- Uefa cups finals: 1=2p
-- Cwc winner: 1=4p
-- Cwc finalists: -
= 119 points

-- Man. Utd:
-- League: 20=40p
-- CL wins, 1992+: 2=20p
-- Cl finals, 1992+: 2=10p
-- CL wins, till 1992: 1=8p
-- CL finals, till 1992: -
-- Uefa cups: -
-- Uefa cups finals: -
-- Cwc winner: 1=4p
-- Cwc finalists: -
= 82 points

-- Arsenal:
-- League: 13=26
-- CL wins, 1992+: -
-- Cl finals, 1992+: 1=5p
-- CL wins, till 1992:
-- CL finals, till 1992:
-- Uefa cups: -
-- Uefa cups finals: 1=2p
-- Cwc winner: 1=4
-- Cwc finalists: 2=4p
= 41 points

-- Liverpool:
-- League: 18=36
-- CL wins, 1992+: 1=10p
-- Cl finals, 1992+: 1=5p
-- CL wins, till 1992: 4=32p
-- CL finals, till 1992: 1=4p
-- Uefa cups: 3=12p
-- Uefa cups finals: -
-- Cwc winner: -
-- Cwc finalists: 1=2p
= 101 points

-- Chelsea:
-- League: 4=8p
-- CL wins, 1992+: 1=10p
-- Cl finals, 1992+: 1=5p
-- CL wins, till 1992: -
-- CL finals, till 1992: -
-- Uefa cups: 1=4p
-- Uefa cups finals: -
-- Cwc winner: 2=4p
-- Cwc finalists: -
= 31 points

-- Inter:
-- League: 18=36
-- CL wins, 1992+: 1=10p
-- Cl finals, 1992+:
-- CL wins, till 1992: 2=16p
-- CL finals, till 1992: 2=8p
-- Uefa cups: 3
-- Uefa cups finals: 2=4p
-- Cwc winner: -
-- Cwc finalists: -
= 77 points

-- Bayern:
-- League: 24=48
-- CL wins, 1992+: 2=20p
-- Cl finals, 1992+: 3=15p
-- CL wins, till 1992: 3=24p
-- CL finals, till 1992: 2=8p
-- Uefa cups: 1=4p
-- Uefa cups finals: -
-- Cwc winner: 1=4p
-- Cwc finalists: -
= 123 Points

Borussia:
-- League: 8=16p
-- CL wins, 1992+: 1=10
-- Cl finals, 1992+: 1=5
-- CL wins, till 1992: -
-- CL finals, till 1992: -
-- Uefa cups: -
-- Uefa cups finals: 2=4p
-- Cwc winner: 1=4p
-- Cwc finalists: -
= 39 Points

Atletico:
-- League: 10=20p
-- CL wins, 1992+: -
-- Cl finals, 1992+: 1=5p
-- CL wins, till 1992: -
-- CL finals, till 1992: 1=4p
-- Uefa cups: 2=8p
-- Uefa cups finals: -
-- Cwc winner: 1=4p
-- Cwc finalists: 2=4p
= 45 points

Valencia:
-- League: 6=12p
-- CL wins, 1992+: -
-- Cl finals, 1992+: 2=10p
-- CL wins, till 1992: -
-- CL finals, till 1992: -
-- Uefa cups: 1=4p
-- Uefa cups finals: -
-- Cwc winner: 1=4p
-- Cwc finalists: -
= 30 points

-- Psg:
-- League: 4=8 points
-- CL wins, 1992+: -
-- Cl finals, 1992+: -
-- CL wins, till 1992: -
-- CL finals, till 1992: -
-- Uefa cups:
-- Uefa cups finals: -
-- Cwc winner: 1=4
-- Cwc finalists: -
= 12 points

Ajax:
-- League: 33=33 points
-- CL wins, 1992+: 1=10 p
-- Cl finals, 1992+: 1=5p
-- CL wins, till 1992: 3=24p
-- CL finals, till 1992: 1=4p
-- Uefa cups: 1=4p
-- Uefa cups finals: -
-- Cwc winner: 1=4p
-- Cwc finalists: 1=2p
= 76 points

Rankings:
1. Real 176
2. Milan 127
3. Bayern 123
4. Juve 119
5. Barca 115
6. Liverpool 101
7. Man Utd 82
8. Inter 77
9. Ajax 76
10. Atletico 45
11. Arsenal 41
12. Borussia 39
13. Chelsea 31
14. Valencia 30
15. Psg 12

 

[Yannik]

Rankings:
1. Real 176
2. Milan 127
3. Bayern 123
4. Juve 119
5. Barca 115
6. Liverpool 101
7. Man Utd 82
8. Inter 77
9. Ajax 76
10. Atletico 45
11. Arsenal 41
12. Borussia 39
13. Chelsea 31
14. Valencia 30
15. Psg 12

Appreciate your effort, but as bad as United are nowadays, they should still probably line up somewhere in that ranking.