Zinedine Zidane

[serghei]

I would argue we were a great side last season, but maybe thats just me.
As for "Real Madrid doesnt have any iconic performances waaah"-rant by this other guy, the way we ran all over Atletico last year, the way we completely took over the CL-final in the 2nd half vs Juventus, just a few.
Yes, i know you guys will just say "but those are weak teams, totally bended over" or something like that.

Yea, last season was probably your most dominating display I've seen. Still falls short when compared with that of some past great teams who applied their dominance more often and more clearly.

 

[Morten]

Yea, last season was probably your most dominating display I've seen. Still falls short when compared with that of some past great teams who applied their dominance more often and more clearly.

I will also say 2011/2012 we were a great side, though we only ended up with a league title, we just demolished most team, week in week out.
We blew it against Bayern by the usual Mourinho tactics in big games, we got the lead, then Mourinho decided to park the bus, lost on penalties in the end.
Not that anyone was going to beat that Chelski-side anyways, they were destined to win it that year.

And i think our best performances last year match up pretty well with some of the great sides of the past, actually.

 

[serghei]

I will also say 2011/2012 we were a great side, though we only ended up with a league title.
We blew it against Bayern by the usual Mourinho tactics in big games, we got the lead, then Mourinho decided to park the bus, lost on penalties in the end.

And i think our best performances last year match up pretty well with some of the great sides of the past, actually.

Actually, I'd rate 2011-12 Madrid better than both 2016 and the current one.

 

[El Gato]

It's not like the favorite color, which is completely arbitrary.

Lol those last two sentences were actually meant to imply levelling of the peak ambition for every team worldwide. Which is a preposterous idea that I think we've agreed upon anyway.

The difference between great teams is made in other areas. Aesthetics, dominance level, legacy and influence. This is where all Madrid CL winning teams fall short. They win the CL and add to the club's glory in this competition, but neither is a truly great team that stands out in an unique way. They mostly prepare and are specialized in winning the CL.

1) Aesthetics are relative.
2) Legacy and influence is a constant. Every action has a reaction and no win goes without being a piece of the bigger puzzle, leaving that mark behind.

To say RM doesn't stand out... You're going back to your "good, bad, better" rhetoric. Result is unique. A result they earned by keeping the core that played the same way with minor tweaks over the 2 CLs and a result they deserved. Using the term "specialising" is a very vague attempt at downplaying the effect so much so that it became pejorative. As if it's wrong to prefer winning every time purely using your mental capacity rather than consistent dominance on the field.

 

[Morten]

Actually, I'd rate 2011-12 Madrid better than both 2016 and the current one.

I have to rate our last season higher, down to trophies and some really great performances in the CL.
If Mourinho werent so negative in certain big games, maybe it would have been different, because it was a terryfing team in attack, goal after goal.

 

[serghei]

Lol those last two sentences were actually meant to imply levelling of the peak ambition for every team worldwide. Which is a preposterous idea that I think we've agreed upon anyway.



1) Aesthetics are relative.
2) Legacy and influence is a constant. Every action has a reaction and no win goes without leaving a mark.

To say RM doesn't stand out... You're going back to your "good, bad, better" rhetoric. Result is unique. A result they earned by keeping the core that played the same way with minor tweaks over the 2 CLs and a result they deserved. Using the term "specialising" is a very vague attempt at downplaying the effect so much so that it became pejorative. As if it's wrong to prefer winning every time purely using your mental capacity rather than consistent dominance on the field.

1) Aesthetics aren't that relative as you might think. Generally, people like the same things. All men like beautiful women, all fans like attacking football, these sort of things.
2) Winning is not everything. How you win is important. Legacy is also about how you win.

RM stand out as a club the most. As individual teams, not so much as other great teams. Madrid never had in my time a team that scared the shit out of the opponents. A team like Juventus wouldn't have been able to come on Camp Nou in 2009-11 and lead Barca 3-0. Would've been impossible. That's domination imo.

 

[El Gato]

1) Aesthetics aren't that relative as you might think. Generally, people like the same things. All men like beautiful women, all fans like attacking football, these sort of things.

Generalities. Even with these idealised examples you can point out the flaws caused by reality, it's not a simple linear progression. Not all men like women to begin with, lol.

Yep, legacy is about how you win. And the magnitude of a great win is not defined by having one rigid system waltz through anything they meet on their path. Madrid will leave the legacy of being ruthless terminator-like team assembled of a flexible squad that just refused to be put down in those 2.5 years of Zidane's reign no matter how apparently evenly matched the teams were. There's your narrative for greatness, which doesn't need to stand out within chance creation or whatever other offensive parameter you choose.

RM stand out as a club the most. As individual teams, not so much as other great teams. Madrid never had in my time a team that scared the shit out of the opponents.

What individual teams? It's a club name that demands respect as you said throughout the past however-many consecutive years of reaching semifinals, not some three names on the teamsheet. Teams don't need to be automatically put in their own box by Madrid to reflect their assertion of dominance upon them. We've talked about perception of dominance too so I don't feel the need to go over that again.

A model sustained since Zidane arrived that people didn't like to go up against at any level:

 

[serghei]

Generalities. Even with these idealised examples you can point out the flaws caused by reality, it's not a simple linear progression. Not all men like women to begin with, lol.

Yep, legacy is about how you win. And the magnitude of a great win is not defined by having one rigid system waltz through anything they meet on their path. Madrid will leave the legacy of being ruthless terminator-like team assembled of a flexible squad that just refused to be put down in those 2.5 years of Zidane's reign no matter how apparently evenly matched the teams were. There's your narrative for greatness, which doesn't need to stand out within chance creation or whatever other offensive parameter you choose.



What individual teams? It's a club name that demands respect as you said throughout the past however-many consecutive years of reaching semifinals, not some three names on the teamsheet. Teams don't need to be automatically put in their own box by Madrid to reflect their assertion of dominance upon them. We've talked about perception of dominance too so I don't feel the need to go over that again.

A model sustained since Zidane arrived that people didn't like to go up against at any level:

I see, so you're basically basing your theories on exceptions (your gay men reference).

Terminator-like team? Please... you're attributing merit for this Madrid team when mostly they just had many things going for them that are out of their control. Penalty shootouts, luck in abundance, kind referee decisions galore, opponents missing clear chances. All of those exactly when they needed and were in trouble. Easiest draw ever and offside goal in the final in 2016, refs coming to the rescue vs Bayern when the tie was even (3-3 aggregate) in 2017. Same story again in 2018 only this time even worse.

They are like most very good teams, that got bailed out by chance when the opponent got them in a corner. Happened a few times in a row. Exposed in La Liga because they were rarely consistent enough to compete at a very good level for a full season. Mostly dominated by their archrival in direct meetings, often badly at home.

 

[Morten]

Even the mighty Barcelona of Pep got lucky at times, if you dont remember, Serghei, luck is part of the game.
I want to say something about the tie againt Bayern last year though, there were bad decision each way.
They got a non-exsistent penalty at home(which they blew), Vidal should have had an early sending off at the SB(he just got the red at the wrong "foul"), and it shouldnt even have been extra time, since their goal was offside.
Seriously, i dont ever hear anyone mentioning that they had an offside goal too.

Besides that Bayern game, which was a mess, we clearly didnt need much luck to win the CL, and we took the league.
This year we were very lucky indeed though, most of the time we arent really a great side, i would argue we were a great side last season, our midfield was superb.

 

[serghei]

Even the mighty Barcelona of Pep got lucky at times, if you dont remember, Serghei, luck is part of the game.
I want to say something about the tie againt Bayern last year though, there were bad decision each way.
They got a non-exsistent penalty at home(which they blew), Vidal should have had an early sending off at the SB(he just got the red at the wrong "foul"), and it shouldnt even have been extra time, since their goal was offside.
Seriously, i dont ever hear anyone mentioning that they had an offside goal too.

Besides that Bayern game, which was a mess, we clearly didnt need much luck to win the CL, and we took the league.
This year we were very lucky indeed though, most of the time we arent really a great side, i would argue we were a great side last season, our midfield was superb.

I agree that there were many errors for both sides last year. Madrid had a bit of an advantage overall. Both Casemiro and Vidal could have been sent off in the first half on Bernabeu. Vidal got yellow at his first foul, then Casemiro stopped 3 counters with fouls and no yellow.

Anyway, I concede the point that last year's Madrid were a great team. The best Madrid team I've seen in my time, with the 2012 side a close 2nd.

 

[El Gato]

I see, so you're basically basing your theories on exceptions (your gay men reference).

It's only exception if you originally write the rule excluding that. Majorities =/= truths

Please... you're attributing merit for this Madrid team when mostly they just had many things going for them that are out of their control. Penalty shootouts, luck in abundance, kind referee decisions galore, opponents missing clear chances. All of those exactly when they needed and were in trouble. Easiest draw ever and offside goal in the final in 2016, refs coming to the rescue vs Bayern when the tie was even (3-3 aggregate) in 2017. Same story again in 2018 only this time even worse.

Random variables. Nothing to do with being more or less deserving of success. But again, if you take your basis of "great football" then you'll arrive at that conclusion. It's going to be boil down to that all the time TBH

 

[serghei]

It's only exception if you originally write the rule excluding that. Majorities =/= truths

OK. I could respect this type of logic if it is consistent. I take it that it's not true that Madrid is the biggest club in the world. It's actually an opinion by a majority of people that isn't necessarily true. Because majorities =/= truths, right?

 

[El Gato]

OK. I could respect this type of logic if it is consistent. I take it that it's not true that Madrid is the biggest club in the world. It's actually an opinion by a majority of people that isn't necessarily true. Because majorities =/= truths, right?

Define “biggest”

 

[Stoichkov1]

Zidane just said that "It's more difficult to win la Liga than the Champions, I've said it all my life".

 

[serghei]

Define “biggest”

There is no definition of biggest. Every individual makes his own definition, based on how they rate the characteristics and achievements of a certain club. It's just the majority's perception that Madrid is the biggest club (mine included) among knowledgeable football fans. Just like it's the majority's perception that peak Pep Barcelona was the greatest team ever in club football history (mine included, as I think Pep's Barcelona is the highest football level any team has reached in the history of the game).

Neither of this is a fact. Just opinions which are rather easy to argument for.