utility73
Senior Member
“Despite what happened, I won’t change my game as it’s only happened once."
I seriously hope you only quoted some past season statement of him?
1 - Marc-Andre ter Ansplant
- Thread starter kaddel11
- Start date
I seriously hope you only quoted some past season statement of him?
BBZ8800
Senior Member
He won't survive 2 years here if he'll make mistakes.
You people should stop with those long term replacements.
No one stays (from foreigners) at Barca for 10 years.
To stay here for a few years, you would have to play consistently like Bravo or Messi.
Enjoy players while they are here.
And that will usually be here for 3-4-5 years and that's it.
We'll buy another good GK and the world won't end.
Neymar, Mats, Denis, Samper etc.
If 1 of them will be here in 4-5 years, that will be a world class miracle.
So, stop planning a 10-years future and focus more on a short 1-2 years future and at best 3-4 year's future.
It can easily prove in the end that Bravo with only 2-3 years left in him could have been a better "long term replacement" here.
Especially with: don't fix what ain't broken, good old saying...
About improvement:
Mats doesn't look psychologically speaking as a guy who can improve, at least in my eyes.
He seems like a strange, too arrogant guy, living in his own world.
He played in that way since always.
Players can improve in a technical area, in some tactical aspects and slightly mature over years.
But how many players (Barca's players) do you know that totally changed/improved over some huge flaw and who changed their footballing personality and their basics?
Messi is the same guy as in 2005.
He is slightly smarter with better decisions, but still the same guy as back then (in his DNA and in his basics).
Xavi was the same guy with the same patterns from the age 18 till the age 35.
Iniesta was always the same guy with the same style, same tricks. He only improved them over time.
Busi, Puyol, Dani, all players.
So, Mats can surely improve slightly, get more confidence (lol, do we actually want more confidence from him?), he will learn to kick the ball sometimes, but imo 99%=he will always be this type of player.
In EVERY single match he will have 2-3 dangerous moments with dribbles, dangerous passes, 1 brainfart etc.
That's just his thing, how he plays, his DNA. He can't change that. (Maybe he doesn't even want to change that).
You can't expect from him to become a silent GK (Bravo's style).
The same as how we can't expect from Neymar to stop showboating and slowing down the game (to do tricks). That's his DNA, the end of a discussion.
But as long as Mats will be here (1-2-5 years), it is quite certain that he will ALWAYS produce moments of horror/brilliance (depends on how you look at those moments).
For me, this was always a pure horror, and I hate when Gks enter into stupid risks:
Others were saying that it was an awesome move, and not a dumb move.
His current moves are only a continuation of that move, and they will probably grow and grow further.
He just wants to show that he is good with feet, reliable, different etc.
And those urges are forcing him to do all these dangerous things. Sometimes his passes and tricks are awesome, but way too many times we will experience nights like this.
Imo, for a GK, you don't want to have a showman.
You want a calm, cool, reliable guy.
If not, we will have a bomb which will always either have 99% passing accuracy and 5 great saves, or nights like this one once-twice a Month.
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BarçaBarça
New member
I would love if people started to look at the bigger picture with the goalkeeper-situation. It seems like most hasn't come to turns with us being the innovator for a whole new (alright, partly new) kind of tactic, which has potential to benefit us massively, and which our opponents can't easily copy.
We don't have a traditional goalkeeper anymore. Our tactics has been adjusted to a kind of extreme 'passing from the backline' with respect to the goalkeeper (although counters are still possible). There are pros and cons to that:
Pros:
We have the possibility to play our way out of high pressure in a way never seen before. With opponents pressing high, especially when they see the goalkeeper contributing, we have a better possibility to play our way out of it, and start counters/build attacks than before, because Mats is like an extra field-player. The primary advantage is that the centerbacks' responsibility is distributed more to the goalkeeper, and that gives us 1 extra player on the field than normal.
Cons:
It's more risky. But the most "safe" kind of play according to this logic is to kick the ball as far away as possible when you are pressured. That is a flawed logic, when you have great technicians who are able to pass out of trouble, and gives you greater advantages in the long run: More possibilities to build attacks and so on. Immediate relieve from pressure, but greater risk in the long run. The goalkeeper is also more exposed. That means that traditionally only centerbacks made fuckups in passing and cost goals that way - now the goalkeeper is at risk for doing the same. If people judge keepers from how many passing mistakes they make, of course Mats will look worse than others (compared to ones doing 0 passes) - but my opinion is, that before it was just the centerbacks making those mistakes. Those kind of mistakes naturally follow from the playing-style we have, and now the risk is distributed a little more. Of course they should be reduced as much as possible, but a lot of people seem blind to the benefits that comes with this playing style. Is it unnecessary risky? If not kicking the ball away as soon as pressed is risky, then yes.
It's new territory in terms of how much the goalkeeper take part in the build-up, and it is totally alright to be opposed to that. But that traditional/conservative thinking could also be directed right at our precious passing-play further up the field. I believe that this tactic has greater benefit in the long run, and overall, it will help us, and give us an advantage.
barcafan161
Active member
His reaction times to get down for a the 2nd goal was poor as well.
Vlom
Previously known as Mehssi
That's what worries me on top of the blunders .. he's really not saving much lately, both 1st and 2nd goal he could have done something, at least get a touch on the ball, everything is going through so easily :/
[MENTION=20959]BarçaBarça[/MENTION] it's not about the tactics or playing the ball to GK more, it would be just as dangerous if it was Busi or Piqué trying these crazy tricks while being last defenders, hence why they don't do it, MatS needs to calm down on the showing off, stop playing for the youtube reel and play it safe.
I have a funny feeling if he keeps this up (cause it ain't the first one), in a few months people will be calling me a MatS hater as they do on Ney thread, while I was in favour of playing him in all competitions ... FML
serghei
Senior Member
I agree. Lucho and the team are going through a dangerous phase right now, and in danger of losing what has been proven to work in 2014-2015 and for the most part of 2015-16. What we lack is balance. Too many guys trying to be smartasses and losing from their sight that the football we played in recent years was dangerous because it was simple. Everybody is now going over the top, and we seem to be in that Pep 2011-12 moment were we couldn't be arsed to fight for wins anymore. We have "MacGyver" Stegen, who takes dumb risks all the time and is made to look like a clown, Lucho who has gone completely lunatic with his frenetic and no-logic rotations (not to mention starting guys like Mathieu in a place were we lost 4-1 a year ago) and so on.
Just too many individuals trying to be too "cool" for their own sake. Just stop this "coolness" spiral and get back to simple basics. Lucho needs to be more pragmatic. His style is simple, when he thinks he's Pep and can reinvent things, he shows his limits. He's no Guardiola.
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BBZ8800
Senior Member
Wait, we had Bravo for 2 years who is more like a standard Gk.
Decent with feet, nothing spectacular.
And we coped quite well with a regular Gk, Bravo.
Now we have Mats, and "suddenly" we evolved our tactics?
Imo, no thanks. We were quite good with a regular Gk also.
We were quite stronger and more solid, I would dare to say.
About a bigger-picture:
Bravo:
-- cons: you get less passes from the back, you will lose the ball more often, other players will need to take a build up responsibility
-- pros: but you get less wtf moments, you get less horror-show moments, your defensive line is less scared that a Gk will make a new fuck up in a key moment
= in general: you will concede less goals in total
We were the best team in Europe for 10 years without an innovative GK in Mats' style.
Plus, we won numerous La ligas in those days.
Football and our opponents really haven't evolved that much that our only option for a success is to have a kung-fu GK like Mats.
My honest opinion is that we could win quite a lot of titles (more than now) with a good old Gks like Bravo, De Gea and even Curtios.
In the last few months, we have this new theory as if a skill No1 needed for being a Barca Gk is how good is he with passing with feet, technique and first touch.
If Mats will repeat this horror show from yesterday a few more times (and I am 99% sure that he will repeat it again and again during his time here), then all his Xaviesque ball control and passing will soon become irrelevant and people will realize that Gk's skill NO1 is= NOT CONCEDING goals, and everything else is a secondary and just a luxury.
And a luxury skill (passing with feet) can never be more important if you suck in conceding goals from this or that reason.
In Mats' case, he sucks in not conceding because of passing the ball too much, trying to showboat and being arrogant.
About kicking the ball from time, there are 1000s of options between: kick the ball upfield in 100% cases and kick the ball upfield 0% (Mats' style).
Pass the ball 80-90% of times when you are not under a pressure and kick the ball upfield in 10-ish % of cases would actually be a way better option than what Mats is doing currently.
But since too many of our fans are obsessed with his passing, and with our passing to our Gk (and how he is handling those situations well), I would dare to say that Mats is buying that "best footballer among Gks" hype shit, and that he won't change his style.
Again, a few more nights like this and we will 99% look for a new "Gk for a next decade" already in spring of 2017'.
Mats will be able to train his footballing skills somewhere else, since Barca is currently looking for a goalkeeper, who will NOT allow goals.
Sorry for a harsh post, but this obsession from our forum about a Gk who will build up play like Busi or Xavi is a total nonsense, imo.
Some decent passing skills are required, but our fans have totally lost a touch with reality, imo.
(Cillessen is bad, he can't pass the ball.
Curtios can't pass the ball etc...)
Well, Mats won't be able to play 4-5 matches in a row without major fuck ups, it seems.
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The alternative in this situation wasn't being an old fashioned goalkeeper who just punts it. Look at the video. He had at least two other (safe) passing options on the right hand side of the pitch. Instead he decides to pass to the left hand side and hits a Celta attacker.
It's not about whether or not to be a ball-playing goalkeeper, his assessment of the situation is lacking and as a result the decision where to pass is terrible. It was the same with the infamous goal last season against Bilbao. He had other safe options but decided to head the ball right into a group of players half of which were opponents.
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khaled_a_d
Senior Member
Not only they were safer options but also better for starting an attack.
He picked the wrong player to pass just b/c it was the better for the show
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Another question: how many mistakes Bravo made in terms:
= he had the ball and there was like 1% danger that he will lose the ball, and he created problems out of nothing, leading to a goal (like our 4th goal yesterday)?
Mats could have kicked the ball upfield like 90-99% of Gks, and nothing would happen.
We would maybe lose possession in that action (maybe we wouldn't, maybe Neymar or Suarez would receive that kicked ball).
But we couldn't concede.
How many goals Bravo created that way, out of nothing, from zero danger?
-- from the past, first 3 goals, classic Mats
-- instead of kicking the ball upfield sometimes, he picks the more dangerous option of passing it or running with a ball, and then he conceded a goal
All these 3 goals could have been avoided with a simple: boot the ball upfield and that's it.
Yesterday, the 1st goal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KR8xQW9x1I
He has two players on his right (Pique and Roberto) without defenders on their backs, he could have played a simple, safe pass (or boot it upfield).
He also has Mathieu on his left, unmarked.
But, Mats Xavi Ter Stegen instead picks an awesome (and highly dangerous) through pass through a middle to Busi, who's area is surrounded by 3 opponents, lol.
Quite an idiotic, complicated, unneeded and risky decision.
Busi is also guilty, but Mats was a creator of that dangerous situation.
And then, the 4th goal, a good old Mats at his finest:
He receives a ball.
And instead of kicking it upfield or passing it faster, he is looking for a perfect Xaviesque solution.
And then, we concede.
On "his" night, Mats will be able to fuck up more things out of nothing, than Bravo did in 70 La Liga matches over 2 years.
His passing ability will soon be forgotten if he'll continue to create shit in this way.
= he had the ball and there was like 1% danger that he will lose the ball, and he created problems out of nothing, leading to a goal (like our 4th goal yesterday)?
Mats could have kicked the ball upfield like 90-99% of Gks, and nothing would happen.
We would maybe lose possession in that action (maybe we wouldn't, maybe Neymar or Suarez would receive that kicked ball).
But we couldn't concede.
How many goals Bravo created that way, out of nothing, from zero danger?
-- from the past, first 3 goals, classic Mats
-- instead of kicking the ball upfield sometimes, he picks the more dangerous option of passing it or running with a ball, and then he conceded a goal
All these 3 goals could have been avoided with a simple: boot the ball upfield and that's it.
Yesterday, the 1st goal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KR8xQW9x1I
He has two players on his right (Pique and Roberto) without defenders on their backs, he could have played a simple, safe pass (or boot it upfield).
He also has Mathieu on his left, unmarked.
But, Mats Xavi Ter Stegen instead picks an awesome (and highly dangerous) through pass through a middle to Busi, who's area is surrounded by 3 opponents, lol.
Quite an idiotic, complicated, unneeded and risky decision.
Busi is also guilty, but Mats was a creator of that dangerous situation.
And then, the 4th goal, a good old Mats at his finest:
He receives a ball.
And instead of kicking it upfield or passing it faster, he is looking for a perfect Xaviesque solution.
And then, we concede.
On "his" night, Mats will be able to fuck up more things out of nothing, than Bravo did in 70 La Liga matches over 2 years.
His passing ability will soon be forgotten if he'll continue to create shit in this way.
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Piss poor performance and it's impossible to defend him costing us the game this way, but the way people are reacting you'd think he's the first player this season to cost us goals. We even have serghei in here channeling his inner Mandrake and blaming Mats for Bravo demanding a transfer
Prior to this game there were no calls to sell him or bring in DDG so calls for it now are almost entirely knee-jerk reactions. If he doesn't learn from this game there will be something to worry about, but I'm sure he can pick it back up going forward.
Hey God Serena! Hows it going?
Being right constantly is soooo frustrating. I don't think Bravo at Barça ever made mistakes like this one that ended up costing us a match. But you will always have trolls saying Bravo was too old, he supposedly had a huge drop in form (?), Ter Stegen is the future of Barça and I don't know what other nonsense.
I thought MATS brain farts were only because of his lack of playing time. Looks like that wasn't the case.
serghei
Senior Member
Just watched the blunder again. It was indeed horrible, and the reason it happened in the first place is not because Lucho told him to do this or that, but because of his arrogance and his desire to show how great he is with his feet.
In the picture we have 4 variants of passes. Now let's look at them in terms of difficulty and utility for the team.
Passing option no1 (orange). Simplest first station pass imo, and the most beneficial for the team except option 3.
Passing option no2, (yellow) is easy (just as easy as option 1) and Pique deliberately goes there to receive under no marking, quite a good option for the team, trying to build from the back, considering the Pique is free and he can receive and then go with the ball at his feet up and initiate an attack.
Passing option no3 (dark green) is the best for the team as it accelerates the game and takes 2 of Celta's players out of the game and behind the ball. Busi is also open, and can receive after which he can initiate the attack faster than Pique. In terms of difficulty it's tougher than options 1 and 2, but a lobbed ball will do the trick.
Passing option no4 is a disastruous pass. The hardest to pull of because there is little space between the receiver and the marker, and even if it is a successful pass it's bound to put the marker into a heavy pressure. Even with a perfect first touch by Alba, he can lose the ball easily. And let's still say you want to make that pass. The way Celta player is positioned, the only way to make it is to pass it paralel with our goal, and determine Alba to move backwards from his position.
Stegen chose the hardest pass to pull off and the most detrimental to the team. The reason why he choose that imo, is because that pass if he makes it makes him look like a great passer. It's just Stegen's attempt to look like Neymar doing a fancy dribble or Messi trying a complex pass.
We don't need that from our keeper.
Wait. CORRECTION. Option 2 is better than 1 because I just realized the receiver in case of option 1 is Mathieu.
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In live broadcast you could see that he waited for too long and then made an idiotic pass, but this analysis takes it to another level. The guy has three much safer options and better for the build up and he chooses the most difficult one, which is also the worst option for initiating an attack. Maybe he was affraid to pass it to the centre due to that mistake from Busquets that led to first goal. I don`t know. But every option was better than this stupid mistake. He needs to get his shit together the same way as his genius coach or else we`ll win shit this season.
F
Flavia
Guest
Goalkeepers make mistakes sometimes. Like this one, for whoever is crying for Bravo: https://youtu.be/Rlka_6AWZoE?t=30s
He'll learn from it. The game vs celta was lost earlier, and it was thanks to Busquets.
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