10 - Lionel Messi - v1

[TornAndFrayed]

Shit goalie, own goal, red card, penalty ?

 

[MMKa]

Higuain and Benzema have each twice hit goalscoring levels in the last 3 years that Ibrahimovic/Villa/Henry/Pedro could not hit. They're not naturally better goalscorers IMO

Face it, they are. Villa has his age, he is playing last years in Barcelona. Henry was replaced by Pedro in 09-10, you can't include him on your calculations. Ibra had his problems.

Also, goals per minute is not enough, its biased on subs like Higuain & Benzema 10-11.

 

[kroki223]

I don't think it's messi's foult, that the others can't use out their chances! Messi give them balls too, also don't critize messi! He played well yesterday!!

 

[lessthanjake]

Face it, they are. Villa has his age, he is playing last years in Barcelona. Henry was replaced by Pedro in 09-10, you can't include him on your calculations. Ibra had his problems.

Also, goals per minute is not enough, its biased on subs like Higuain & Benzema 10-11.

Villa is not that old. He was only 28 when he came to Barca. A striker who is 28-30 years old is generally considered still in his prime.

Henry was getting old in the 2009-2010 season. Maybe that's why he didn't play well. But I included him because he performed really well the year before, when Messi wasn't playing as a false nine. The drop-off afterwards was shocking. Maybe it was old age and bad form, but maybe the shift in strategy also contributed. When you say he was replaced by Pedro so he shouldn't be included, you imply that I touted his 4 goals that season as a season-long total. I did not. I specifically made sure to only mention his goals per minute stat and to otherwise combine his stats for the whole season with Pedro's (notice I say "Ibrahimovic and Pedro/Henry" multiple times).

Saying Ibra had his problems is not a valid excuse at all. His problems were that he didn't perform well. I am pointing out that he didn't perform well. That is indisputable. The question is why. I say it has something to do with Messi's role. You are basically saying "He didn't perform well because he didn't perform well."

How is goals per minute biased? Are you saying that Higuain and Benzema got to sub in/out more so they were more fresh on average than Barcelona forwards were? If so, I'm not sure that's true:

In 2009-2010, Higuain played 76.15 minutes per appearance. Benzema played 54.09 minutes per appearance.
In 2010-2011, Higuain played 74 minutes per appearance. Benzema played 60 minutes per appearance.
In 2011-2012, Higuain played 51.57 minutes per appearance. Benzema played 68.48 minutes per appearance.

In 2009-2010, Ibrahimovic played 66.22 minutes per appearance. Pedro played 52.76 minutes per appearance.
In 2010-2011, Villa played 79.21 minutes per appearance. Pedro played 68.53 minutes per appearance.
In 2011-2012, Alexis played 61.49 minutes per appearance. Pedro played 57.38 minutes per appearance.

If you look at the three years as a whole, the Madrid forwards actually seem to have played very similar minutes per appearance. In 2010-2011, the Barcelona forwards played more on average, but it went the other way the other two years. Besides, I'm not at all convinced this issue really matters THAT much. We aren't comparing one striker who gets subbed in for 15 minutes on 6 occasions to another striker who played one full match.

 

[Barca_Power11]

messi vs deportivo

 

[FCBarca]

Xavi on Leo:

On a sun-filled morning at the team's training complex, Xavi's eyes widen and he gets jazz hands as he talks about Messi.

"The hardest thing in football is to take on the defender and dribble around him," he says. "Well, Messi dribbles around four, five, six, seven and scores. That's practically impossible today. Everybody is physically strong, tall. In a combination play you can get there, but he does it by himself and does it in each game.

In football there are two speeds: physical, the speed of your legs, and mental. I only have this one"—Xavi points to his head—"but he has both. That's why he's the best in the world."

 

[Yannick03]

messi vs deportivo

Another freekick on the post ?! He practised a bit on freekicktaking and instantaneously became the best in the world at it. That's when you know, you were born to play football and he probably is the most talented football player there has ever been. They should indeed find a new superlative to describe him.

 

[Yannick03]

Villa is not that old. He was only 28 when he came to Barca. A striker who is 28-30 years old is generally considered still in his prime.

Henry was getting old in the 2009-2010 season. Maybe that's why he didn't play well. But I included him because he performed really well the year before, when Messi wasn't playing as a false nine. The drop-off afterwards was shocking. Maybe it was old age and bad form, but maybe the shift in strategy also contributed. When you say he was replaced by Pedro so he shouldn't be included, you imply that I touted his 4 goals that season as a season-long total. I did not. I specifically made sure to only mention his goals per minute stat and to otherwise combine his stats for the whole season with Pedro's (notice I say "Ibrahimovic and Pedro/Henry" multiple times).

Saying Ibra had his problems is not a valid excuse at all. His problems were that he didn't perform well. I am pointing out that he didn't perform well. That is indisputable. The question is why. I say it has something to do with Messi's role. You are basically saying "He didn't perform well because he didn't perform well."

How is goals per minute biased? Are you saying that Higuain and Benzema got to sub in/out more so they were more fresh on average than Barcelona forwards were? If so, I'm not sure that's true:

In 2009-2010, Higuain played 76.15 minutes per appearance. Benzema played 54.09 minutes per appearance.
In 2010-2011, Higuain played 74 minutes per appearance. Benzema played 60 minutes per appearance.
In 2011-2012, Higuain played 51.57 minutes per appearance. Benzema played 68.48 minutes per appearance.

In 2009-2010, Ibrahimovic played 66.22 minutes per appearance. Pedro played 52.76 minutes per appearance.
In 2010-2011, Villa played 79.21 minutes per appearance. Pedro played 68.53 minutes per appearance.
In 2011-2012, Alexis played 61.49 minutes per appearance. Pedro played 57.38 minutes per appearance.

If you look at the three years as a whole, the Madrid forwards actually seem to have played very similar minutes per appearance. In 2010-2011, the Barcelona forwards played more on average, but it went the other way the other two years. Besides, I'm not at all convinced this issue really matters THAT much. We aren't comparing one striker who gets subbed in for 15 minutes on 6 occasions to another striker who played one full match.

In my humble opinion, I'm thinking you are turning things around. Messi HAD to produce more because the other 2 strikers were producing less.

 

[Yugi]

he is unique, very unique, noone comes close to him
absolutely noone

 

[MaestroXavi]

Messi is insanely good, probably the best player ever, but I DO wonder if his play-style stops Barca from having any other effective forwards.

Last season, Ronaldo-Higuain-Benzema scored 118 goals. Messi-Villa-Pedro (98 goals), Messi-Eto'o-Henry (100 goals), Messi-Ibrahimovic-Henry/Pedro (95 goals), and Messi-Alexis-Pedro (101 goals, though this was just an injury/form ravaged year for non-Messi Barca forwards) never did that. It seems that the front three in a Messi team pretty much are going to get ~100 goals in a season no matter what. And this isn't for lack of having other good forwards. Villa, Ibrahimovic, Eto'o, Henry, and even Pedro/Alexis to a less extent, are all world-class strikers.

However, especially since the 2009-2010 season when Messi moved to the center of the pitch, these world-class strikers have had a tough time producing. Henry only scored 4 goals in 32 appearances in 2009-2010. David Villa has only 35 goals in 82 appearance for Barca (0.427 goals an appearance), after scoring 128 goals in 212 matches for Valencia (0.601 goals an appearance). Ibrahimovic only scored 22 goals in 46 appearances for Barcelona (0.478 goals an appearance), but in the 2 years prior and 2+ seasons since, he has scored 117 goals in 174 matches (0.672 goals an appearance). Both Alexis and Pedro struggled with their form a lot last season. While there ARE other reasons contributing to these issues in every case, the fact remains that multiple world-class strikers have had a tough time producing alongside Messi. This is evident from watching them as much as it is from the numbers themselves.

This shouldn't be the case entirely. Yes, Messi takes up the center of the pitch and is the focal point, so he will take up a lot of the goalscoring chances. He also takes the penalties. HOWEVER, Messi also falls back into midfield a lot, leaving space for these strikers, and he is an excellent playmaker who can serve up assists to these guys. Meanwhile, the rest of the Barca team creates more overall chances than any other team any of those guys have played for. There are a lot of chances to go around.

I think in order to get the best out of Messi, you need to put him in the false nine role. However, the positions you put around false nines (wing attackers who cut in) are not positions that natural goalscorers are comfortable in. So you have three options:
1). Try to play Messi in the false nine with a striker in front of him. Barcelona tried this with Ibrahimovic and it seemed to crowd both men's space too much
2). Put natural strikers in the wing roles. Barcelona tried this with Villa and sort of with Henry. These guys found it tough to replicate their goalscoring exploits from the wings.
3). Put natural wing players in the wing roles. Barcelona tried this with Alexis. The problem is that natural wing players are not great goalscorers, so while Alexis did not score less than he had before he came to Barca, he didn't score as a Barcelona forward should.

There are no great options. I'm not saying Messi shouldn't be put in the false nine role. He produces there like no other player in history has produced. However, I think there IS a point to be made that Ronaldo scores so much while playing on the wing with productive strikers around him. When Messi played on the wings (prior to the 2009-2010 season), he scored a lot less, but the strikers around him (Eto'o and Henry) scored a ton as well (62 goals from Eto'o/Henry in the 2008-2009 season). Maybe those guys were just having great seasons that could be replicated even with Messi being in a false nine role, but I'm not sure given the evidence. Benzema and Higuain got 58 goals last season. Villa and Pedro got 45 in 2010-2011, Alexis and Pedro got 28 last year, Ibrahimovic and Pedro/Henry got 48 in 2009-2010. Seems the false nine role has made Messi MUCH better but at a fairly significant cost to the rest of the front three's effectiveness.

IMO that was Ibrahimovic and Messi's inability to not let the other have the ball for longer than 10 seconds

 

[alex88bg]

Guys there is a headline on my news site " Dad Messi close to Peles record" . They said he became dad last night after the game at Depo.Any truth in that.BTW i almost cried when he scored third last night,after all going through his head and tiredness bcs of argentina to play like that for the team left me speechless.

 

[MMKa]

Thanks for the stats. I was practically asking them. But with a record goalscoring season for whole team, that is not the whole story at all. 190 in 64. The season before, 147 in 60. That's 43 goals more and Messi scored only 20 more.

 

[alex88bg]

http://www.*********/en-ie/news/392...messi-marvels-in-nine-goal-classic-as-new-son

I even found this on ********* ( hate them but... ) .
All in all if thats the truth ,little man has given us all these years even if he stops playing football tomorrow something that will make his son as proud as someone can be.Congrats Leo

 

[jiopi]

"They don't know where he's going, he doesn't know where he's going, so how the hell can they?" - Ray Hudson

(the last goal in the run against defenders when he didn't look up)

 

[10-10]

belief me i wached maradonna in his prime and thougt ther will never be someone as good as he was.
watchting this kid play is like wachting maradonna but 10 times better, i mean every thing maradonna did this kid does it twice as good and twice as fast.
GREATEST PLAYER EVER