10 - Lionel Messi - v2

[Stric]

Unbelievable Cesc hate around here. He's had his share of blunders, bad games, and skills that need to be worked on, but there's no need to belittle him and take away what he does well on a regular basis.

 

[CatalinR10]

 

[raskolnikov]

Messmarizing

 

[footyfan]

Where there any posts deleted? I don't see any Cesc hate at all.

Not trying to talk down the man's passing/vision, just saying that I think there are a lot of OTT reactions, as if every assist he makes is a piece of genius that few/no others would be able to pull off, and he's often talked about as though he's in a league of his own, head and shoulders above anyone else in terms of passing in the final third which is pure nonsense for me. Of course he's incredible but there's a good handful of players who are up there with him.

Anyways as for examples, I don't wanna go digging for footage 'cause I'm lazy, but IIRC Messi's first assist to Villa in that 5-0 vs Madrid, his previous similar pass to Xavi in same match, (both of which were way better than the 2nd assist to Villa which got similar praise even though Villa had retarded amounts of space to run into and it woulda been crazy not to spot that) there was a lot less space and room for error in those instances imo not to mention more pressure on Messi. In general Fabregas/Xavi/Iniesta are all also able to make brilliant passes and are definitely on Messi's level if not better in terms of passing/vision (Iniesta's trademark crazy passes from the opposing goal line to find a player open in a crowded box without even looking..Xavi we all know obviously has a ridiculously flawless sense of timing/weight for passes and crazy vision etc..)
Again, don't mean to take away from the guy or sound like a hater because he's a pretty near to impossible combination of a fantastic footballing brain with a deadly quick/explosive body and technique. But better vision/passing than anyone else playing, and he'd be the best CM in the world if he played there? Riiight...

I feel as though you can't accept that one player can be the best at passing, dribbling and finishing. You also seem to be getting your reactions off of chat, c'mon everyone says bullshit on chat. I was going crazy just because Reus scored a tap-in header from a goalie mistake

If any of the other Barca players had done something amazing, their threads would be filled with gifs too, just take a look at any of the best Iniesta or Fabregas performances from last season. Of course you're gonna see more gifs of Messi because he does amazing stuff more often. I don't see any OTT reactions, maybe just 1 person here thinks he's the best passer ever. People do say he's the best final passer at Barca and I don't see anything OTT in that.

At the highest level, especially involving skilful players like the Barca ones, all the players can do everything (almost). Dani Alves can also make through passes like Messi, Iniesta, Xavi or Fabregas - it doesn't mean he's a better passer than them. Messi is the best final passer in Barca not because he can do things no one else can but because he does it more often than anyone else can and in more situations than anyone else.

If you take the gif that I posted, I've seen Iniesta/Xavi/Fabregas in that exact same position as Messi yet they don't make that pass right there. Now this could be because they don't think it's a good idea or maybe they think there's a better option - that's irrelevant. All of them can pull off the pass but they don't - only Messi does. It's the actions that matter - not can/cannot do arguments.

As for Messi's passes just being accurate passes into space - that's basically the definition of through ball. I don't know what else you're expecting. Show me one example of glorious vision that doesn't involve an accurate pass into space.

Your attempts to avoid coming across as a hater seem a bit futile - just now you're coming into Messi's thread talking him down, a while ago you were saying Iniesta is a better dribbler because you don't consider 'going past players' to be dribbling, soon you will say Messi is not even the best finisher. Oh wait you already did:

http://www.barcaforum.com/showthread.php/8676-Best-quot-finisher-quot/page7/post#93

With everyone on form he's not even the most lethal finisher for Barca...

 

[Flavia]

@barcastuff 26 m
Javier Saviola (ex-Barcelona): "Messi is a better person than player. And he's the best player in the world." [@radiolared]

That's some *** kissing

 

[Elite-BkD]

Where there any posts deleted? I don't see any Cesc hate at all.



I feel as though you can't accept that one player can be the best at passing, dribbling and finishing. You also seem to be getting your reactions off of chat, c'mon everyone says bullshit on chat. I was going crazy just because Reus scored a tap-in header from a goalie mistake

If any of the other Barca players had done something amazing, their threads would be filled with gifs too, just take a look at any of the best Iniesta or Fabregas performances from last season. Of course you're gonna see more gifs of Messi because he does amazing stuff more often. I don't see any OTT reactions, maybe just 1 person here thinks he's the best passer ever. People do say he's the best final passer at Barca and I don't see anything OTT in that.

At the highest level, especially involving skilful players like the Barca ones, all the players can do everything (almost). Dani Alves can also make through passes like Messi, Iniesta, Xavi or Fabregas - it doesn't mean he's a better passer than them. Messi is the best final passer in Barca not because he can do things no one else can but because he does it more often than anyone else can and in more situations than anyone else.

If you take the gif that I posted, I've seen Iniesta/Xavi/Fabregas in that exact same position as Messi yet they don't make that pass right there. Now this could be because they don't think it's a good idea or maybe they think there's a better option - that's irrelevant. All of them can pull off the pass but they don't - only Messi does. It's the actions that matter - not can/cannot do arguments.

As for Messi's passes just being accurate passes into space - that's basically the definition of through ball. I don't know what else you're expecting. Show me one example of glorious vision that doesn't involve an accurate pass into space.

Your attempts to avoid coming across as a hater seem a bit futile - just now you're coming into Messi's thread talking him down, a while ago you were saying Iniesta is a better dribbler because you don't consider 'going past players' to be dribbling, soon you will say Messi is not even the best finisher. Oh wait you already did:

http://www.barcaforum.com/showthread.php/8676-Best-quot-finisher-quot/page7/post#93

From start to finish you've hardly addressed anything I've been on about. In summary:

Many people will assert that he's head and shoulders above any of our other players in terms of passing and vision. Sorry, it just strikes me as ridiculous/fanboyism to claim he's got a clear edge over Xavi/Iniesta in terms of vision and I think that's definitely OTT.

Many people will go ranting and raving about every goal or assist of his as though it's the best piece of football that they've seen in the past ten years, and as though nobody else has ever had the capacity to pull it off. OTT

And of course you pass the ball into space, my point was that some of his passes happen to exploit areas of space left unattended by the opposition which you could literally build a nice sized house on and people will go on and on over such a pass as though it's a clear reflection of peerless creative genius. Sorry, but if an opposing defensive line is 45 yards from goal, it's not that hard to punish them by passing into that space, that happens all the time.

Re: Iniesta & dribbling , yes, I'd still maintain there's a difference between running past players and dribbling the ball. Messi obviously can compete with the best at both of those things, but there's nothing wrong with considering Iniesta to edge it in terms of dribbling (ie ball control). Ronaldo, Bale, Walcott...all can run past defenders without dribbling as well as the best dribblers on the planet, pointing out that there's a difference between the two things isn't exactly unrealistic.

Re: That quote from a year ago... Messi obviously scores a lot, and can score from a wide variety of situations, but he still misses a fair amount of relatively easy chances and I'd say Villa in his prime probably was more lethal, in terms of converting a higher percentage of his chances. It came across quite harshly there and you could fairly say Messi is a better finisher considering how many situations he can score in. Still would caution to differentiate ease with which he puts himself into goal scoring positions and actual finishing.

With all that being said, I do happen to think Messi is the best all around combination of technique, intelligence, vision, awareness, finishing, passing and athleticism. I just believe that claiming he's far and away #1 in each of those areas is a little much for me, if that makes me a hater...whatever.

 

[raskolnikov]

From start to finish you've hardly addressed anything I've been on about. In summary:

Many people will assert that he's head and shoulders above any of our other players in terms of passing and vision. Sorry, it just strikes me as ridiculous/fanboyism to claim he's got a clear edge over Xavi/Iniesta in terms of vision and I think that's definitely OTT.

Many people will go ranting and raving about every goal or assist of his as though it's the best piece of football that they've seen in the past ten years, and as though nobody else has ever had the capacity to pull it off. OTT

And of course you pass the ball into space, my point was that some of his passes happen to exploit areas of space left unattended by the opposition which you could literally build a nice sized house on and people will go on and on over such a pass as though it's a clear reflection of peerless creative genius. Sorry, but if an opposing defensive line is 45 yards from goal, it's not that hard to punish them by passing into that space, that happens all the time.

Re: Iniesta & dribbling , yes, I'd still maintain there's a difference between running past players and dribbling the ball. Messi obviously can compete with the best at both of those things, but there's nothing wrong with considering Iniesta to edge it in terms of dribbling (ie ball control). Ronaldo, Bale, Walcott...all can run past defenders without dribbling as well as the best dribblers on the planet, pointing out that there's a difference between the two things isn't exactly unrealistic.

Re: That quote from a year ago... Messi obviously scores a lot, and can score from a wide variety of situations, but he still misses a fair amount of relatively easy chances and I'd say Villa in his prime probably was more lethal, in terms of converting a higher percentage of his chances. It came across quite harshly there and you could fairly say Messi is a better finisher considering how many situations he can score in. Still would caution to differentiate ease with which he puts himself into goal scoring positions and actual finishing.

With all that being said, I do happen to think Messi is the best all around combination of technique, intelligence, vision, awareness, finishing, passing and athleticism. I just believe that claiming he's far and away #1 in each of those areas is a little much for me, if that makes me a hater...whatever.

So your carefully ripping him all post to end with he's the best allround, it does make you a hater, of course.
He is easily the best scorer in the world, thats not even worth debating about, you act like he is Cristiano and takes 10 shots a game to score 1 when thats clearly not the case.
Also easily the best dribbler, arguably the goat dribbler. Iniesta is better getting out of small spaces imo but that doesnt make him a better dribbler, just more pleasent to watch.
His passing is among the best in the world currently.
He is basically All time great level at these 3 aspects, you act like he is only decent at them and saying thats wrong is fan boyism to you.
The stats and footage easily back him up in this argument.

 

[footyfan]

From start to finish you've hardly addressed anything I've been on about. In summary:

Many people will assert that he's head and shoulders above any of our other players in terms of passing and vision. Sorry, it just strikes me as ridiculous/fanboyism to claim he's got a clear edge over Xavi/Iniesta in terms of vision and I think that's definitely OTT.

Many people will go ranting and raving about every goal or assist of his as though it's the best piece of football that they've seen in the past ten years, and as though nobody else has ever had the capacity to pull it off. OTT

And of course you pass the ball into space, my point was that some of his passes happen to exploit areas of space left unattended by the opposition which you could literally build a nice sized house on and people will go on and on over such a pass as though it's a clear reflection of peerless creative genius. Sorry, but if an opposing defensive line is 45 yards from goal, it's not that hard to punish them by passing into that space, that happens all the time.

Re: Iniesta & dribbling , yes, I'd still maintain there's a difference between running past players and dribbling the ball. Messi obviously can compete with the best at both of those things, but there's nothing wrong with considering Iniesta to edge it in terms of dribbling (ie ball control). Ronaldo, Bale, Walcott...all can run past defenders without dribbling as well as the best dribblers on the planet, pointing out that there's a difference between the two things isn't exactly unrealistic.

Re: That quote from a year ago... Messi obviously scores a lot, and can score from a wide variety of situations, but he still misses a fair amount of relatively easy chances and I'd say Villa in his prime probably was more lethal, in terms of converting a higher percentage of his chances. It came across quite harshly there and you could fairly say Messi is a better finisher considering how many situations he can score in. Still would caution to differentiate ease with which he puts himself into goal scoring positions and actual finishing.

With all that being said, I do happen to think Messi is the best all around combination of technique, intelligence, vision, awareness, finishing, passing and athleticism. I just believe that claiming he's far and away #1 in each of those areas is a little much for me, if that makes me a hater...whatever.

OK we're only differing in our perspective of the comments here, not a big deal so I won't continue the argument. You also don't seem to differentiate between ball control and dribbling so I'll just leave that alone as well because it's just semantics at this point.

That Tello pass is what everyone is really talking about and there wasn't a ridiculous amount of space there. All of Iniesta and Xavi's best passes also arise only when there's a ridiculous amount of space (if ridiculous is defined as the space in that Tello pass).

Just wanted to point out that at no point during Villa's career was he as lethal as Messi is now or was a year ago. He missed a lot of easy chances, I used to regularly follow Valencia because they had two players I really liked - Silva and Villa.

 

[Ghost]

Just wanted to point out that at no point during Villa's career was he as lethal as Messi is now or was a year ago.

I love Villa, but this is a fact.

Villa (in his prime) is more lethal than 2004-2010 Messi yes, but not Messi of the last 3 seasons. It really is not debatable.

 

[tariqo]

I'm thinking about jiopi here. He is not a true Barca fan, but a Messi worshipper.

U can say that to me also ,, & I'm proud about it ^_^

 

[BarcaGirl]

There are rumors that Messi and Antonella have split (or are in a crisis), because he was pictured with another woman, back when he attented Ronaldo's privat party in Las Vegas during summer.

I want to slap him, if this is true

 

[mixer]

There are rumors that Messi and Antonella have split (or are in a crisis), because he was pictured with another woman, back when he attented Ronaldo's privat party in Las Vegas during summer.

I want to slap him, if this is true

I doubt it. Messi doesn't seem like that type of a guy. Anyway, where did you get the info?

 

[BarcaGirl]

I doubt it. Messi doesn't seem like that type of a guy. Anyway, where did you get the info?

http://www.diariogol.com/es/notices...roccuzzo-con-una-rubia-en-las-vegas-34111.php

:icon_neutral:

 

[BigBarcaBoy]

There are rumors that Messi and Antonella have split (or are in a crisis), because he was pictured with another woman, back when he attented Ronaldo's privat party in Las Vegas during summer.

I want to slap him, if this is true

he's clearly becoming a threat to world peace like a James Bond villain and should be sold as soon as possible !

 

[Elite-BkD]

So your carefully ripping him all post to end with he's the best allround, it does make you a hater, of course.

Yeah, literally didn't rip on Messi once in that post, maybe read what I write before you respond to it?

OK we're only differing in our perspective of the comments here, not a big deal so I won't continue the argument. You also don't seem to differentiate between ball control and dribbling so I'll just leave that alone as well because it's just semantics at this point.

That Tello pass is what everyone is really talking about and there wasn't a ridiculous amount of space there. All of Iniesta and Xavi's best passes also arise only when there's a ridiculous amount of space (if ridiculous is defined as the space in that Tello pass).

Just wanted to point out that at no point during Villa's career was he as lethal as Messi is now or was a year ago. He missed a lot of easy chances, I used to regularly follow Valencia because they had two players I really liked - Silva and Villa.

Regarding the discussion of Iniesta / dribbling etc, (which, mind, you brought up as evidence of myself being highly unreasonable) I simply pointed out that there's a difference between a players ability to beat defenders and a players ability to dribble. Some beat a defender mostly using pace/athleticism, some use mainly dribbling, and of course all use some combination. While Messi is clearly wildly better than Iniesta at going past opposing players, he holds no such clear advantage just in terms of dribbling (which is something you do to the ball, not a player).
As for the comment on finishing, again, still don't think Messi is far and away #1 in terms of calmly finishing every chance he gets and that's not exactly demented thinking.
Either way, there's a very different analysis of the questions asked from the norm that I'm applying in both situations, and both of those discussions are completely irrelevant to more recent comments regarding the ridiculous talking up of virtually everything Messi does.
FYI it was mainly the pass to Alexis that I was referring to with the comment of the idiotic amount of space that was exploited, which of course led to wanking over his brilliant vision. The pass to Tello was quite nice but all three of Messi/Iniesta/Xavi (among others) are capable of much more impressive passing/vision than that, which happens to be a play we see quite regularly (Messi has the ball in midfield, curls a nice pass to a runner cutting in from the left, been done over and over that wasn't brilliant innovation or genius vision on Messi's part, sorry).