10 - Lionel Messi - v3

[Sumlit]

Nobody says that, that's stupid.

Have you not visited this forum lately?

You can't say that proves his hunger for success. By definition, it needs to be a sustained hunger, not something that flip flops from one game to the next.

Talent wise he's of course the best. The template has been the same throughout the past 2 years. When he sees space, and has the ball at his feet, he's far away from everybody else and that's part of what gives him GOAT status. When there's less space, and he doesn't have the ball at his feet, that's when we're seeing problems nowadays. A couple of years ago, in this scenario, he would always provide a useful option to our passers. Nowadays, he has to shoulder a chunk of blame for our central midfielders passing the ball around aimlessly because they simply do not have a good target for a forward pass.

The bolded part is utterly ridiculous. You've seen time and time again Messi dropping back because the midfield has become increasingly incapable of providing penetration. To blame Messi for the midfield's deficiency is beyond absurd.

I think it's time people stop demanding 10s every day from Messi and yet not demand the same level of performance from the surrounding talent, who as a matter of fact are not performing as well or as consistent as him. This is not a team of Messi and 10 more. This is Barcelona.

 

[Kerrybai]

Vintage performance, but people need to stop acting like today's game proved anything.

I would say it disproves the idea of Messi not trying hard enough anymore.

 

[footyfan]

@Sumlit: I said he has to shoulder a chunk of the blame, not all of it. And I think you don't realize a very simple truism of football, for a pass to be completed both the passer and receiver need to do their job. How is it wrong to flip the argument around and say the midfielders cant provide any penetration because Messi makes no runs at all? His alternative to good movement has been to drop ridiculously deep thereby further reducing the options available to our CMs.

 

[messid10s]

Haters be gone from this thread.

 

[DonAndres]

Haters be gone from this thread.

I demand you unquote me from your sig! I feel stupider every time I look at it.

And both Sumlit/footyfan have a point. Messi providing better off the ball movement would make him a part of the buildup and a working outlet rather than an outsider waiting to receive the ball too statically or having to drop too deep to do anything in attack. That, however, doesn't change the fact that our midfield often lacks the life/vibrancy we had before in moving the ball and creating chances (which I'd say is often a defect of the entire team as a whole).

 

[Sumlit]

@Sumlit: I said he has to shoulder a chunk of the blame, not all of it. And I think you don't realize a very simple truism of football, for a pass to be completed both the passer and receiver need to do their job. How is it wrong to flip the argument around and say the midfielders cant provide any penetration because Messi makes no runs at all? His alternative to good movement has been to drop ridiculously deep thereby further reducing the options available to our CMs.

This has been the way Messi has played since the Guardiola times. He stays in the middle and drops deep, wingers make runs to create space. If you want to complain about lack of runs, look at the wings, not at Messi.

The midfield has lost a lot of mobility and incisiveness, the wingers have changed and lost a lot goal threat. This is the biggest difference, not Messi's lack of movement destroying the entire Barcelona dynamic. All this has also resulted in team's overmarking Messi, and reducing his avenues and areas of movement.

If you want to demand something, demand the rest of the team raise their level to the past one. Do not demand a 10 from Messi every day. Barcelona demand world class play from 11 players, not just 1.

 

[Vapor]

This has been the way Messi has played since the Guardiola times. He stays in the middle and drops deep, wingers make runs to create space. If you want to complain about lack of runs, look at the wings, not at Messi.

The midfield has lost a lot of mobility and incisiveness, the wingers have changed and lost a lot goal threat. This is the biggest difference, not Messi's lack of movement destroying the entire Barcelona dynamic. All this has also resulted in team's overmarking Messi, and reducing his avenues and areas of movement.

If you want to demand something, demand the rest of the team raise their level to the past one. Do not demand a 10 from Messi every day. Barcelona demand world class play from 11 players, not just 1.

Exactly. Well said. You hardly see those diagonal runs from the wingers these days that Messi used to nail with precision accurate through balls. The midfielders haven't been helping as much in creating penetrative play with the wingers allowing the goal scoring chances for Messi either. The overall level of the team hasn't been as good, and thus it appears like Messi isn't as good. But Messi is just as good as ever IMO.

 

[footyfan]

I demand you unquote me from your sig! I feel stupider every time I look at it.

And both Sumlit/footyfan have a point. Messi providing better off the ball movement would make him a part of the buildup and a working outlet rather than an outsider waiting to receive the ball too statically or having to drop too deep to do anything in attack. That, however, doesn't change the fact that our midfield often lacks the life/vibrancy we had before in moving the ball and creating chances (which I'd say is often a defect of the entire team as a whole).

Exactly, which is why I hold Messi only partly responsible. Our midfield has lost the vigour of previous seasons. I wouldn't disagree with anyone who argues that our midfield has
(1) lost it's intensity
(2) lost its defensive prowess, either through pressing or through traditional marking/tackling
(3) a little of its sharpness in its passing.

However, it's not like we have Shawcross, NZonzi or Ameobi in midfield, our world cup winning midfielders Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets can carve a defence open quite skilfully but are currently finding it difficult to as they are constrained by the movement up front. But everytime I come to this thread, I see Messi apologists ridiculing anyone who tries to shaft some blame on to Messi for our issues vs deep defences.

 

[footyfan]

This has been the way Messi has played since the Guardiola times. He stays in the middle and drops deep, wingers make runs to create space. If you want to complain about lack of runs, look at the wings, not at Messi.

The midfield has lost a lot of mobility and incisiveness, the wingers have changed and lost a lot goal threat. This is the biggest difference, not Messi's lack of movement destroying the entire Barcelona dynamic. All this has also resulted in team's overmarking Messi, and reducing his avenues and areas of movement.

If you want to demand something, demand the rest of the team raise their level to the past one. Do not demand a 10 from Messi every day. Barcelona demand world class play from 11 players, not just 1.

What? Messi used to drop deeper to get the ball 2008-12 but he also made a lot of horizontal movement. He was never making runs in behind as frequently as Villa did, but it's not like he never did.

 

[Kerrybai]

What? Messi used to drop deeper to get the ball 2008-12 but he also made a lot of horizontal movement. He was never making runs in behind as frequently as Villa did, but it's not like he never did.

I think his style of play is gravitating more towards his national team play. If the team needs more movement up front then the solution probably lies with the other forwards or else a new number 9 to play on front of Messi.

 

[DonAndres]

This has been the way Messi has played since the Guardiola times. He stays in the middle and drops deep, wingers make runs to create space. If you want to complain about lack of runs, look at the wings, not at Messi.

The midfield has lost a lot of mobility and incisiveness, the wingers have changed and lost a lot goal threat. This is the biggest difference, not Messi's lack of movement destroying the entire Barcelona dynamic. All this has also resulted in team's overmarking Messi, and reducing his avenues and areas of movement.

If you want to demand something, demand the rest of the team raise their level to the past one. Do not demand a 10 from Messi every day. Barcelona demand world class play from 11 players, not just 1.

That's why I believe it's not a problem of select players underperforming (even a number of them) because it's a systemic issue. For every 2 players jogging/running at any point, there's 4 walking or something like that. The space between the players is either too long or too short, the team shape is a mess which weakens the connection over the entire pitch, and communication is poor as a whole. This, coupled with some personnel defects (Xavi, Alves, and Pique? all declining, poor player form) is what's causing us as a whole to find less success in our tactical and on-pitch endeavors.

There's a clash of tactical ideas, jumbled positioning, and far less cohesion. The fact that we don't play as a team or a working unit weakens us far more than any group of individuals underperforming. The player himself (whoever it may be) is far less of a detriment than a weak connection between him and his teammates. If we had a system, there'd be a massive improvement as the players have more room to gain some form while they also have the support of the others.

 

[footyfan]

I think his style of play is gravitating more towards his national team play. If the team needs more movement up front then the solution probably lies with the other forwards or else a new number 9 to play on front of Messi.

I agree, I have been advocating for a number 9 for quite a long time now, precisely because Messi's style has been changing. However, some people don't want to accept that for whatever reason.

 

[Kerrybai]

I agree, I have been advocating for a number 9 for quite a long time now, precisely because Messi's style has been changing. However, some people don't want to accept that for whatever reason.

Id like to see our wingers act as 9's more often. We've seen a couple of occassions where Sanchez has taken up the position while Alves then moves up to fill the hole left behind. Total football and all that.

 

[Sumlit]

What? Messi used to drop deeper to get the ball 2008-12 but he also made a lot of horizontal movement. He was never making runs in behind as frequently as Villa did, but it's not like he never did.

He does not have the space now. The decline of the team has made opponents focus their marking centrally on Messi. Extra movement in this environment is wasted, there simply are almost no open lanes to receive service. The team does not need more movement from Messi, but better play from the midfield and the wings. This will unlock the middle and get the space for Messi to move and work with. Then you'll see his magic again.

My point is people should not be coming here demanding a 10/10 performance every day from Messi, when in fact the rest of the team is under-performing far worse. The environment in which Messi is playing right not is not conducive to a consistent high level of play. The team needs better play from the midfield and the wings to ease his way.

 

[messid10s]

I demand you unquote me from your sig! I feel stupider every time I look at it.

And both Sumlit/footyfan have a point. Messi providing better off the ball movement would make him a part of the buildup and a working outlet rather than an outsider waiting to receive the ball too statically or having to drop too deep to do anything in attack. That, however, doesn't change the fact that our midfield often lacks the life/vibrancy we had before in moving the ball and creating chances (which I'd say is often a defect of the entire team as a whole).

Don't worry before the start of next season some hapless fools comments about Messi will be my sig lol