10 - Lionel Messi - v4
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BBZ8800
Senior Member
About Messi quitting NT team, I don't mean anything bad towards and Argentina, but they have 0,1% chance to win a world cup.
Again, this will sound somewhat rude, but his real chance for NT trophy is Copa America or Olympic games.
On Copa you have only 2-3 stronger opponents like Chile, poor Brasil and Uruguay.
If you can't win Copa against those opponents, you have 0 chances against waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay stronger European powerhouses like Germany, Italy, Spain, France etc.
So, for people who are hoping that he will come back to NT team, what is the point?
He will play horrible for Barca in 2017/18 if he will think about World cup.
And then, Argentina will have 0,1% chance to do something on European soil.
Then, fans will attack him again and he will suffer even more mental issues both in 2017/18 before a World cup and in 2018/19 after a World cup.
If he wants to win an NT trophy, he can try on Copa.
Realistically, Argentina and Messi won't win WC, especially now with 31 years old Messi.
In the past they had some chances, but now they don't.
For Barca fans, it is better if he won't play for NT team anymore.
For Messi's fans who care mostly about Messi's legacy and his Baloon'D'Ors, well, quitting is a bad thing then...
Mental strength?
Too many people don't mention that skill at all.
You all mention either technical skills of players, or good/bad luck, or good/bad coaches.
If a team loses numerous finals in a same way, there can be something horribly wrong with a mentality of that club/nation/players.
On the other hand, if someone else is winning all the time (in a somewhat lucky way), it can't be just luck.
For example, can anyone imagine German NT team losing several finals in a row in a same way?
Absolutely no chance.
Can you imagine Argentina, Netherlands, current Brasil and similar losing xx finals in a row?
Oh, yes, quite easy.
About Messi, in the last few days we have debated about whether is a CR7 a choker or not.
Messi is somewhat similar to Modric now.
With Barca, Messi is not scared in finals.
With Argentina, when the pressure is high, Messi is choking. And as the time goes by, and as the pressure grows (because of previous failures), he is choking more and more.
The world is not black and white, as it often seems on Barcaforum, like:
Barca, we are good guys.
Our players are good guys and mentally strong.
While RM players are bad guys, lucky guys without much skills, and usually chokers.
We can twist stats how much we want, but Messi in an NT team is a textbook example of choking.
(If someone replies: but his NT sucks.
Well, that pulls some new questions: is he then winning titles in Barca because his team, Barca, is too good then?
I am not implying that, but on the other hand, we have so many silly excuses for our players, and silly accusations for opponent's players.
When CR7 and Portugal play badly=we say that it is NOT because Portugal is crap, but because CR7 is a pure crap (lol)
When Messi and Argentina disappoint=then, in our eyes, it is NOT Messi's fault. It is AFA, a coach, poor teammates.
While in reality, aren't Di Maria, Aguero and Higuain better teammates than CR7's teammates where the best attacking player is Nani, who plays for Fenerbahce (lol), and Quaresma who never played some serious club football in his whole career?
And yet, CR7 relies heavily on a service from teammates.
So, who should create chances there in order for him to score and shine?
Flavia, this is not a reply to your post, but in general.
I mean, we can still adore Barca and Messi.
But we can also say: boy, he was crap and choked in his NT career, sadly.
He will still be a Goat, a best player ever, a player who brought us (Barca) the best era in our lives.
But also, we have to be realistic. His NT career was really not good enough for his standards.
He will surely never win a WC (Argentina is not good enough).
So, yes, Messi had weak teammates (but not THAT weak), his coach was bad (but not THAT bad) etc.
Argentina should have probably won at least 1 copa in his NT career.
Again, this will sound somewhat rude, but his real chance for NT trophy is Copa America or Olympic games.
On Copa you have only 2-3 stronger opponents like Chile, poor Brasil and Uruguay.
If you can't win Copa against those opponents, you have 0 chances against waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay stronger European powerhouses like Germany, Italy, Spain, France etc.
So, for people who are hoping that he will come back to NT team, what is the point?
He will play horrible for Barca in 2017/18 if he will think about World cup.
And then, Argentina will have 0,1% chance to do something on European soil.
Then, fans will attack him again and he will suffer even more mental issues both in 2017/18 before a World cup and in 2018/19 after a World cup.
If he wants to win an NT trophy, he can try on Copa.
Realistically, Argentina and Messi won't win WC, especially now with 31 years old Messi.
In the past they had some chances, but now they don't.
For Barca fans, it is better if he won't play for NT team anymore.
For Messi's fans who care mostly about Messi's legacy and his Baloon'D'Ors, well, quitting is a bad thing then...
Mental strength?
Too many people don't mention that skill at all.
You all mention either technical skills of players, or good/bad luck, or good/bad coaches.
If a team loses numerous finals in a same way, there can be something horribly wrong with a mentality of that club/nation/players.
On the other hand, if someone else is winning all the time (in a somewhat lucky way), it can't be just luck.
For example, can anyone imagine German NT team losing several finals in a row in a same way?
Absolutely no chance.
Can you imagine Argentina, Netherlands, current Brasil and similar losing xx finals in a row?
Oh, yes, quite easy.
About Messi, in the last few days we have debated about whether is a CR7 a choker or not.
Messi is somewhat similar to Modric now.
With Barca, Messi is not scared in finals.
With Argentina, when the pressure is high, Messi is choking. And as the time goes by, and as the pressure grows (because of previous failures), he is choking more and more.
The world is not black and white, as it often seems on Barcaforum, like:
Barca, we are good guys.
Our players are good guys and mentally strong.
While RM players are bad guys, lucky guys without much skills, and usually chokers.
We can twist stats how much we want, but Messi in an NT team is a textbook example of choking.
(If someone replies: but his NT sucks.
Well, that pulls some new questions: is he then winning titles in Barca because his team, Barca, is too good then?
I am not implying that, but on the other hand, we have so many silly excuses for our players, and silly accusations for opponent's players.
When CR7 and Portugal play badly=we say that it is NOT because Portugal is crap, but because CR7 is a pure crap (lol)
When Messi and Argentina disappoint=then, in our eyes, it is NOT Messi's fault. It is AFA, a coach, poor teammates.
While in reality, aren't Di Maria, Aguero and Higuain better teammates than CR7's teammates where the best attacking player is Nani, who plays for Fenerbahce (lol), and Quaresma who never played some serious club football in his whole career?
And yet, CR7 relies heavily on a service from teammates.
So, who should create chances there in order for him to score and shine?
Flavia, this is not a reply to your post, but in general.
I mean, we can still adore Barca and Messi.
But we can also say: boy, he was crap and choked in his NT career, sadly.
He will still be a Goat, a best player ever, a player who brought us (Barca) the best era in our lives.
But also, we have to be realistic. His NT career was really not good enough for his standards.
He will surely never win a WC (Argentina is not good enough).
So, yes, Messi had weak teammates (but not THAT weak), his coach was bad (but not THAT bad) etc.
Argentina should have probably won at least 1 copa in his NT career.
Last edited:
raskolnikov
Well-known member
So sad for him, the unfairness in football really makes me hate it sometimes. there are more messed up moments in the sport than magical moments.
I think I might be done with football for a while after the euro's.
I think I might be done with football for a while after the euro's.
Total-Football
Senior Member
[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] parts of your long post are just absurd .. Messi a choker tonight ?! i never overrate players who play for my favorite team Barca , i'll help you out in this .. remember the match when we played in calderon ?.. Messi walking doing nothing defensively, he stoped running sometime during 2013 , alright , but i give him a pass because he's phenomenal in the offensive aspect , back to Vicente calderon , he done absolutely nothing Worth mentionning , no movement while we had the ball , no dribble to disbalance them , nothing , for a player who contributes nothing defensivley and do nothing upfront is the definition of a disaterous performance, that was a choker , a proper choker mind you .. Today , it was no choker , hide the result , give the individual highlight and show it to any objective football fan they gonna tell you that's a 9 out of 10 at least performance .. the guy plays far from the goal and receive the ball in midfield , he's done every possible thing to disbalance the oponent starting with a red that is more than enough to win you a game .. he earned that red card single-handedly .. kept passing to team mates in the most perfect positions and even run backwards to defend at times .. how is he a choker if teammates are fucking it up ?
Spain are more of a powerhouse than Chile in their actual level ? i don't know if i have memory problems but last time they played Spain was trashed , outplayed .. Chile is at the level of argentina and germany and they are a proper team capable of winning the next world cup , Argentina has a chance of playing and winning the next world cup too like every other top team .. they just need to work on few things including mental strenght ( here i agree with you ) but to say 0.1 % chance to a team that took germany 120 minutes to beat in a final ..lol
as for putting Modric and Messi in the same sentence , i wont comment
Edit : how is aguero better than nani .. have you watched Aguero in the second half of this season ? have you watched him against real Madrid .. Have you watched the game today .. i did and also watched Nani .. Yes Nani plays better at th moment , far better
Spain are more of a powerhouse than Chile in their actual level ? i don't know if i have memory problems but last time they played Spain was trashed , outplayed .. Chile is at the level of argentina and germany and they are a proper team capable of winning the next world cup , Argentina has a chance of playing and winning the next world cup too like every other top team .. they just need to work on few things including mental strenght ( here i agree with you ) but to say 0.1 % chance to a team that took germany 120 minutes to beat in a final ..lol
as for putting Modric and Messi in the same sentence , i wont comment
Edit : how is aguero better than nani .. have you watched Aguero in the second half of this season ? have you watched him against real Madrid .. Have you watched the game today .. i did and also watched Nani .. Yes Nani plays better at th moment , far better
Lomar1o
Active member
i swear to fucking god if he had one teammate who he could just play one two with in high caliber matches messi would do so much more, but he fucking doesn't have anyone, they wuss the fuck out, he gives a pass and there's NEVER a fucking return pass, ever. their touch suddenly becomes shit, their responsiveness goes down a level or two, their mentality goes down the drain, they become pieces of wood. messi doesn't choke, argentina chokes and drags messi down the hole with itself. and despite missing a pen he was more involved in this final, more likely to do something out of nothing than in the previous copa final and wc final. the only dangerous player in the attack, covered by 2-3 players CONSTANTLY, even more at times. just because he doesn't bust his ass off defensively doesn't mean he wasn't busting his ass off offensively. messi being a NT choker is a myth, only messi, masch, romero and some other defenders to some extent DO NOT choke in big games, but there's only so much three positionally separated players can do in such games when the whole team has to perform. you said he choked more as the pressure grew, i say he was better than in previous finals, and to me it's fucking undeniable. i pray to god that messi comes back, because he is a winner and winners dont succumb do stress they overcome it and gain strength from it. he will not be scared, he will be rutheless, he will not be stressed, he will enjoy it. messi loves football too much to give up on his NT because he is a winner, not a quitter.
Egert
Estonian Culé
I am so sad for my little Leo... I even couldn't watch the celebrations anymore after Chile's last penalty because I knew that watching Leo sad will bring tears out of me 
So I went so sleep and I saw Messi crying... I don't think he has any chance of winning a trophy with ARG so retiring from national team sounds like a reasonable thing to do + all the hate he gets with ARG + all the mess with AFA.
So I went so sleep and I saw Messi crying... I don't think he has any chance of winning a trophy with ARG so retiring from national team sounds like a reasonable thing to do + all the hate he gets with ARG + all the mess with AFA.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Zero chance for this.
He will be 2 years older than now, which means:
1. 2 years slower than today
2. weaker dribbles than today
3. his mental/motivational batteries will be even weaker than today
4. pressure on him will be higher than ever
5. his NT team will still be crap
6. european teams are too strong
7. european teams ALWAYS play better on European soil than in Americas/Africas
Argentina's last chance was Brasil 2014, on South American soil, where they are "at home" in terms of climate, while European teams usually struggle on different continents.
Last 2 world cups on European soil:
France 98 Quarterfinals:
-- 6 European teams: France, Croatia, Netherlands, Italy, Germany, Denmark
-- 2 other teams: Brasil, Argentina
Germany 2006 Quarters:
-- 6 European teams: Italy, Germany, France, Portugal, England, Ukraine
-- 2 other teams: Brasil, Argentina
While, look at this, when a WC is on another continent (NOT Europe), then random South American, Asian and African teams more easily reach last 8:
-- 2010:
-- Europe: Spain, Netherlands, Germany
-- rest: Brasil, Arg, Uruguay, Paraguay, Ghana
-- 3:5 for rest of the world
-- 2014:
-- Europe: Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, France
-- rest: Arg, Brasil, Colombia, Costarica
4:4
-- or 2002, Korea and Japan:
-- Europe: Germany, Turkey, Spain, England
-- rest: Brasil, Korea, Usa, Senegal
4:4
So, you see, it repeats all the time that European teams play better on European soil, and are somewhat lost in a different climate.
Also, teams from outside Europe have more chances to reach last 8 OUTSIDE of Europe, when European teams are lost and confused.
On the other hand, World cups on European soil offer less surprises and media often call it: World cup is actually a Euro cup plus Brasil+Argentina (when it is played in Europe).
When you sum it all:
1. 31 years old Messi with weaker skills
2. poor teammates in his NT team
3. WC on European soil
4. huge pressure on Messi
For Barca and Messi, as I have written in a previous post, if Messi decides to play on a WC:
1. he will be a crap for Barca in 2017/18, thinking about Wc and saving strength again for a WC
2. after a WC, he will be a broken man (mentally) again, and ruined at least in a 2018/19 season, but who knows, maybe he will lose his mental strength/motivation forever and maybe he'll quit football or something like that (everything is possible)
But, if not, he will be ruined for at least 2 seasons (2017/18 and 2018/19). That would mean that Messi's final years are ruined.
And that this season (2016/17) is his last "good" season in Barca.
Me, as Barca's fan, don't want that.
I am sorry for his NT issues, but I want him here.
You failed to take into account the difference in the way Messi has to play in Barca vs the NT. Barca players provide Messi outlets to use his incredible passing range, those one two's and most importantly they give him the ball. Conversely on the NT, he is surrounded by full blown ball hogs who fail miserably in understanding the concept of a team game. You give Di Maria or Aguero a ball anywhere near 30 yards from the goal, I'll guarantee it that 9/10 they will put their heads down and try to go for goal. It's no wonder that Argentina looked so good before Gaitan and Fernandez got injured, it was because waste of space Biglia, who may as well have been a spectator, forgets he is a midfielder and basically just stand there aimlessly for the whole match whereas Agusto had great movement positioning and got the ball to Messi. Same is the case with Di Maria/Aguero instead of Gaitan. Gaitan actually looked up to see if there was someone in a better position or if shooting was a better option, when was the last time you saw the abovementioned braindead idiots do that?
Portugal may not be WC on paper but if you actually look at their games, you'll see how much the team works as a whole for their forward players. I'd take a team, a real team with good plays, over a squad full of WC players without any sort of teamplay
raskolnikov
Well-known member
He will get back on that decision for sure, just give it some time.
Topolino
Gemusesuppe
I fell asleep 45 minutrs before the game and woke up just after it.
It's ubderstandable from all of these players to say they quit. It'll atleast save them from that huge roasting by the press that was coming and instead show the press that if they don't want them, they won't play for them. Add to that the clusterfuck of the AFA and it's ine of the most logical decisions ever. Easier for the government to get involved - FIFA won't accept governments having a say in their FAs but if they already don't have a team, the authorities might aswell look into the subject.
Fact is, when AFA make their first steps to becoming clean and their ranks are cleaned by the Ultras than all of those players will come back. Well most of them.. and I hope Masche also returns, atleast for the WC.
It's ubderstandable from all of these players to say they quit. It'll atleast save them from that huge roasting by the press that was coming and instead show the press that if they don't want them, they won't play for them. Add to that the clusterfuck of the AFA and it's ine of the most logical decisions ever. Easier for the government to get involved - FIFA won't accept governments having a say in their FAs but if they already don't have a team, the authorities might aswell look into the subject.
Fact is, when AFA make their first steps to becoming clean and their ranks are cleaned by the Ultras than all of those players will come back. Well most of them.. and I hope Masche also returns, atleast for the WC.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
I put Modric here because on other topics we talked about choking in the last few days and what we consider as choking.
Check CR7's topic of this forum.
I have said there that I personally consider as choking when:
1. a players plays weaker than his usual self, for example if you need 5 shots usually to score a goal, and then in finals you need 10 or 20 shots for 1 goal.
That means that you were scared, you weren't concentrated, you were always a few inches inaccurate etc
That is choking, being afraid since a lot is at stake
2. a 2nd example is if you are imposing yourself usually, but you fail to do that on NT matches or in finals, because you are scared.
Some posters claimed that CR7 is a choker. But he doesn't fit these 2 criterias (how I see choking).
Further, Modric from my country is a textbook example of NT choker.
He is imposing himself with Real, but with NT team where he is supposed to be a leader, he disappeared every time in key matches, for few Euros/World cups in a row.
This is why I mentioned Modric.
Not because he is on Messi's level, but because Modric is an NT choker.
About Messi and NT team, you are mentioning his running.
Ok, he is imposing himself, from my point no2 about what I consider as choking.
But, on the other hand, Messi (for NT team, not Barca) needs much more shots to score, right?
So, his shots are NOT as lethal in NT finals as they are in Barca's finals or in NT matches when there is no pressure on.
So, in my eyes, according to what I have described as choking, Messi is a textbook example of NT choking.
He is scared, he isn't at 100%, his shots aren't as lethal as usually.
If you reply now: But he was good in Barca's finals.
Exactly.
He is not a choker in general.
In Barca he is a Goat.
But in Argentina, he choked due to a huge pressure and due to 10 years of bad results.
About Chile being better than Spain, that is your opinion.
We'll see how they'll play on European soil.
Aguero/Nani/Quaresma, excuses.
Di Maria is a 70m player.
Nani and Quaresma, I won't even comment.
Again, Messi is the best sportsmen of all time for me.
My favorite Barca player ever.
Majority of players can't lace his boots in my eyes.
I loved him yesterday, I love him today.
His Copa loss didn't change my opinion about him.
I don't care if he'll win BallonDOr or not.
Or what RM's fans will say.
I am just saying as a guy who loves Barca and Messi, I think that he choked.
Messi in Argentina and Messi in Barca are not same players.
Yes, his teammates are poor, but he just missed so many chances where he could have scored in all those finals.
Some will say that it was just a bad luck.
I think that it was a huge pressure and he crumbled.
And majority of his shots over the years were a few inches inaccurate.
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