10 - Lionel Messi - v4

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Chong Li

Chong Li

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Wise decision by Leo.

Why waste any more time, heart, emotion, energy for a lost cause?

I hope this is a permanent NT retirement, no return for WC (which I seriously doubt Argentina willl qualify for wihout Leo)
 
Total-Football

Total-Football

Senior Member
[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] as for CR7 , i think in this case you're right about some fans , personally i like him as a player, one of the best ever , i just hate his diva antics in the field and his crying prior to ballon d'or gallas , but to his defense , he's no different case , he plays for Real Madrid as good as in the Portugal national team , he's no choker , he's a poacher , no service = no goals .. in the game against hungary i saw no different player than the one i see with real Madrid .. a great player , the second or the third the best player in the world ( debatable with neymar ). he's not at fault if his teammates are wack , football is an 11 elements game , unless it's an anime or some shit no player ever would single handedly win tournaments . i suggest you go back and Watch argentina during 86 world cup , matches not youtube highlights, you will be surprised a great deal how capable Maradonna's teammates were.

we differ on the term choke here apparently , to me choking is not doing your part of the team , choking is how messi played in the calderon , in the camp nou against Madrid , against chealsea in 2012 and against inter especially 2010. To drag a sorry ass team to the final of the world cup is a success , not a collective one but an individual achievement. you said Dimaria is a 70 M player .. well today Martino decided to play an injured 70 M player and subbed him off early , when you are injured , doesnt matter how much you cost. And Wake me when Banega stops thinking himself Maradonna.. also Watch otamendi never playing as a starter with guardiola
 
Chong Li

Chong Li

New member
Total-Football said:
[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] as for CR7 , i think in this case you're right about some fans , personally i like him as a player, one of the best ever , i just hate his diva antics in the field and his crying prior to ballon d'or gallas , but to his defense , he's no different case , he plays for Real Madrid as good as in the Portugal national team , he's no choker , he's a poacher , no service = no goals .. in the game against hungary i saw no different player than the one i see with real Madrid .. a great player , the second or the third the best player in the world ( debatable with neymar ). he's not at fault if his teammates are wack , football is an 11 elements game , unless it's an anime or some shit no player ever would single handedly win tournaments . i suggest you go back and Watch argentina during 86 world cup , matches not youtube highlights, you will be surprised a great deal how capable Maradonna's teammates were.

we differ on the term choke here apparently , to me choking is not doing your part of the team , choking is how messi played in the calderon , in the camp nou against Madrid , against chealsea in 2012 and against inter especially 2010. To drag a sorry ass team to the final of the world cup is a success , not a collective one but an individual achievement. you said Dimaria is a 70 M player .. well today Martino decided to play an injured 70 M player and subbed him off early , when you are injured , doesnt matter how much you cost. And Wake me when Banega stops thinking himself Maradonna.. also Watch otamendi never playing as a starter with guardiola
Click to expand...

LOL. Messi seems to be quite a choke artist for you. Calderon, Madrid, Chelsea, Inter... anything else?
 
Total-Football

Total-Football

Senior Member
Chong Li said:
LOL. Messi seems to be quite a choke artist for you. Calderon, Madrid, Chelsea, Inter... anything else?
Click to expand...

yes in those matchs yes i'm not afraid to say it .. i'm not a ride or die type of fan , i was explaining to him , that if messi choke i wouldn't be afraid to say it .. this Copa he played as the goat we admire . from his first match to the final
 
blaugrana1987

blaugrana1987

New member
Total-Football said:
yes in those matchs yes i'm not afraid to say it .. i'm not a ride or die type of fan , i was explaining to him , that if messi choke i wouldn't be afraid to say it .. this Copa he played as the goat we admire . from his first match to the final
Click to expand...
Wow. A guy with 700 matches under his belt had a few bad ones? Get a grip...jeez
 
Batistuta9

Batistuta9

New member
I don't know you you can say he choked on them games. For every big game he never played well, he has had 10 games where he has won the game for us.
 
Gaudi

Gaudi

Senior Member
My only concern about Messi is the same for some time now, he looks like he declined physically, acceleration, stamina...and I don't know why, I don't think it's simple laziness, and maybe when he's career is over we'll find out.
I would like him to win everything all the time, but I don't really support Argentina so I wont lose any sleep if he truly retires.
 
B

Barcilliant

Senior Member
Argentina choked not Messi.

This is a team game. I actually think Messi has over achieved with Argentina. He's taken them to three finals with a shitty disjointed team. They may have a few star attackers but don't really have anything else. No balance, no unity, no proper coach....

I hope this is a heat of the moment thing and he reconsiders.
 
BBZ8800

BBZ8800

Senior Member
Total-Football said:
we differ on the term choke here apparently , to me choking is not doing your part of the team , choking is how messi played in the calderon , in the camp nou against Madrid , against chealsea in 2012 and against inter especially 2010. To drag a sorry ass team to the final of the world cup is a success , not a collective one but an individual achievement. you said Dimaria is a 70 M player .. well today Martino decided to play an injured 70 M player and subbed him off early , when you are injured , doesnt matter how much you cost. And Wake me when Banega stops thinking himself Maradonna.. also Watch otamendi never playing as a starter with guardiola
Click to expand...

Ok, I have found some definitions on internet:
In sport, choking under pressure is a negative athletic experience that may have psychologically damaging effects. The media recognizes that choking is a dramatic drop in performance, whereas researchers have labeled choking as any decrease in performance under pressure.

Messi in Barca (when he plays bad) is usually Messi without motivation (like Calderon this season).
About Messi in NT, he reminds of Atletico Madrid.

For example, Atletico can beat better teams in quarters and semis.
But when they come to a final, they crumble under a pressure even though their opponent in a final is the same or even weaker than teams against whom they won in quarters or semis.
So, Atletico doesn't crumble in a psychological way because they are scared of Real Madrid, but because they are "afraid" (to some extent) of actually winning a title since they are now on the final step (of winning it).
So, you see, in first knockout rounds they don't feel the pressure of winning a trophy since they have a lot of work to do until winning it.
But when they get to the final game/final step, they start to "shake", they are afraid, their shots are not 100% lethal anymore, their tackles and passes are not 100% perfect anymore as in quarters and semis.
Aka, the final step is the hardest, and the pressure on your shoulders will be the biggest in that final, last game.

Messi in NT team is somewhat similar to Atletico.
You see, imo, he won a CL aged 19 with Barca, so psychological pressure about CLs was gone since early days for him (in Barca).
And since he won it again aged 22 (in 2009), he don't have any pressure or anything here at Barca.

So, with Barca: he is the greatest and he has delivered so many times and he has won titles from the early age.
So, everything is perfect here.

With NT team, it is different.
You have less opportunities and tournaments there.
But since Messi become the greatest with Barca, people from Argentina started to believe that Messi ows them a trophy also.
At least one. Since he is a goat, and since Argentina won lots of trophies with way weaker key players and leaders.
So, winning something under Messi looked like a certainty (in the future).

But then, years were passing by, and Argentina didn't win any trophies.
As years were passing by, Argie fans were becoming nervous and they knew that they have less and less chances since Messi is getting older.
Due to Messi being a goat, due to fan's expectations in Argentina and due to years passing by, on every new tournament the expectations from Messi and Argentina were higher and higher, like: you have less and less chances to finally win a trophy.

We can't pretend that this more or less isn't a truth (what's happening with their team, fans and Messi).
And since Messi is reading papers and he knows the expectations of Argie fans, he surely felt more and more pressured over years to finally win something.
First final was a bad luck.
But when you lose a 2nd one, you start to ask questions.
And each new final is harder and harder. You can "lose" much more than you can win (to some extent), and it probably feels as harder and harder to actually win a final. You are to some extent scared of every action, scared of every defensive mistake and when you do get a chance to shoot, 100s of questions go through your head. (This is my estimation, sorry if something is wrong)

And you see, this is a textbook example of pressure and crumbling under pressure.
In Barca, there is no pressure for Messi.
He won CLs too many times.
In Argentina, a pressure is insane.
In Barca, he doesn't need to prove anything.
In Argentina, everyone expect a title, and he feels as if he is obligated to deliver a title, and if he fails, the whole country will think that he disappointed them.

So, you see, circumstances are much different for Messi at Barca and Argentina.
And yes, his team is a crap.
And yes, he dragged Arg to finals with bad teammates.
But still, in finals, it seems as a pressure played it's role and Messi isn't 100% accurate, fast, relaxed, lethal.

Imagine a 5th final for Messi with NT team, it would be the hardest final yet.
Each new final is harder and harder (if you lost all previous finals).
The same is with Atletico. Their each new final will be harder and harder, and they will be more and more pressured in each new final, and with bigger chances to crumble/choke.

So, let's go back to first paragraph of my post:
In sport, choking under pressure is a negative athletic experience that may have psychologically damaging effects. The media recognizes that choking is a dramatic drop in performance, whereas researchers have labeled choking as any decrease in performance under pressure.

I still think that pressure killed Messi in Argentina.
And yes, AFA is bad, Tata is bad, his teammates are bad.
But still, in finals for Argentina, his level of quality was lower than usual Messi.

He tried, he showed passion and everything.
But his shots and some passes suffered in some moments because pressure was too high and it lowered the quality of his (usual) game.

So, for the end, it is a textbook example of crumbling and playing at least slightly weaker than usual self under pressure.

Batistuta9 said:
I don't know you you can say he choked on them games. For every big game he never played well, he has had 10 games where he has won the game for us.
Click to expand...

He is not choker for Barca.
He choked for Argentina.

Those are two different things, two different Messis, and two different pressures on his shoulders.

Barcilliant said:
Argentina choked not Messi.

This is a team game. I actually think Messi has over achieved with Argentina. He's taken them to three finals with a shitty disjointed team. They may have a few star attackers but don't really have anything else. No balance, no unity, no proper coach....

I hope this is a heat of the moment thing and he reconsiders.
Click to expand...

The same as Atletico.
They are not choking in semis, even when they are a weaker team.

But when they get close to a long desired title in a final, then the pressure kills their usual game.
 
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BarcaGirl

BarcaGirl

Active member
Messi retiring from the NT is probably the best decision for him both mentally and physically. He deserves to play the football that makes him happy not where he gets slammed and blamed for every single mistake/loss. I support him 100%.

At least now I don't have anymore reason to support ARG. These last 3 summers have been a waste of my life.
 
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