10 - Lionel Messi - v5

M

MessiCam

Guest
You were the one who said long balls would circumvent Pep's tactics and break them down, if anything I'd say that's one of the least effective ways to counter Pep's football. Better premiership teams? I'd say so far this season their performances against better premiership teams are quite convincing. They'll be even better when Aguero returns and if Gundogan/B. Silva can nail down a productive role in the team even as subs.
They only played 2 of the better teams. Liverpool and Chelsea... I’d say things were pretty even against Liverpool with 11 men and in that game Liverpool were knocking them over the top to get behind that defence. Chelsea lost their way once Morata got injured. The rest of the teams... 4 of them are bottom 5. Much like Barça in the early going this season.

And there is a difference between desperate long balls and calculated/counter attacking long balls. This is not rocket science.
 

DonAndres

Wild Man of Borneo
They only played 2 of the better teams. Liverpool and Chelsea... I’d say things were pretty even against Liverpool with 11 men and in that game Liverpool were knocking them over the top to get behind that defence. Chelsea lost their way once Morata got injured. The rest of the teams... 4 of them are bottom 5. Much like Barça in the early going this season.

And there is a difference between desperate long balls and calculated/counter attacking long balls. This is not rocket science.

Long balls, as far as effectiveness is concerned, is almost by definition a desperate way of playing. Low rate of success and even lower when teams actively try long balls with more frequency as a tactic. The only scenario where they can reasonably be used with any sort of frequency is to beat very aggressive offside traps. This is also only ever really effective if the team trying to do them can actually string passes together and transition forward before attempting it, not to mention that while Pep does have a high line he doesn't do it for the purpose of aggressive offside traps.

Chelsea were dominated with or without Morata, they were lucky City weren't able to break them down sooner. Dominated them in shots through the game and even when Morata was on (7 shots to 2, dominating possession).

Liverpool had chances and a decent first half but they were still losing AND getting outplayed, and then after Pep's HT adjustments they were totally wrecked. Going down to 10 men is obviously disadvantageous but Sane was not the difference between 1-0 and 5-0. It's more down to City wearing them down and Pep's adjustments (and Liverpool's defense falling apart) that they got slaughtered in the 2nd half. They ended up with like double the shots and double the possession, no contest at all. Even if Liverpool had been more clinical and equalized or scored 2 before the half it still wouldn't offset the ass beating they received. They could not stop City's onslaught of chance creation, and it's very doubtful that any other EPL team can do that either.
 
M

MessiCam

Guest
Long balls, as far as effectiveness is concerned, is almost by definition a desperate way of playing. Low rate of success and even lower when teams actively try long balls with more frequency as a tactic. The only scenario where they can reasonably be used with any sort of frequency is to beat very aggressive offside traps. This is also only ever really effective if the team trying to do them can actually string passes together and transition forward before attempting it, not to mention that while Pep does have a high line he doesn't do it for the purpose of aggressive offside traps.

Chelsea were dominated with or without Morata, they were lucky City weren't able to break them down sooner. Dominated them in shots through the game and even when Morata was on (7 shots to 2, dominating possession).

Liverpool had chances and a decent first half but they were still losing AND getting outplayed, and then after Pep's HT adjustments they were totally wrecked. Going down to 10 men is obviously disadvantageous but Sane was not the difference between 1-0 and 5-0. It's more down to City wearing them down and Pep's adjustments (and Liverpool's defense falling apart) that they got slaughtered in the 2nd half. They ended up with like double the shots and double the possession, no contest at all. Even if Liverpool had been more clinical and equalized or scored 2 before the half it still wouldn't offset the ass beating they received. They could not stop City's onslaught of chance creation, and it's very doubtful that any other EPL team can do that either.

Now I know you don't watch the games and base your opinions on chances created and possession stats. With 11 men, Liverpool actually troubled City on numerous occasions and City actually scored against the balance of play. Game shifted significantly when Mane was sent off. Chelsea on the other hand pressured City at times with Morata... Their game went for a ball shit after he got injured.

And no, long balls are not a desperate way of playing. What rubbish is this? Are you twelve? Long balls have and always will be both a usable and effective tactic. Have you seen how teams use switch play by getting the ball to the other flank to counter the oppositions press? Hell, even Pep told his players to counter Napoli's press last night after being caught in possession in the final third by doing what? You guessed it, playing over the press. Xavi was a master at doing it...

English football is renowned for the long ball and getting stuck in to win that second ball.

What confounds me is that I'm reading this on a Barcelona forum where the fans should know that having insane possession and creating chances means very little when the opposition with the little ball they see creates better chances.
 

DonAndres

Wild Man of Borneo
Now I know you don't watch the games and base your opinions on chances created and possession stats. With 11 men, Liverpool actually troubled City on numerous occasions and City actually scored against the balance of play. Game shifted significantly when Mane was sent off. Chelsea on the other hand pressured City at times with Morata... Their game went for a ball shit after he got injured.

And no, long balls are not a desperate way of playing. What rubbish is this? Are you twelve? Long balls have and always will be both a usable and effective tactic. Have you seen how teams use switch play by getting the ball to the other flank to counter the oppositions press? Hell, even Pep told his players to counter Napoli's press last night after being caught in possession in the final third by doing what? You guessed it, playing over the press. Xavi was a master at doing it...

English football is renowned for the long ball and getting stuck in to win that second ball.

What confounds me is that I'm reading this on a Barcelona forum where the fans should know that having insane possession and creating chances means very little when the opposition with the little ball they see creates better chances.

Lol, you don't need to worry I watched the games. City dominated Chelsea from start to finish other than a handful of spells, they were in total control a majority of the time. Putting up some resistance doesn't mean that Chelsea were effective and competing on the same level or even close. I don't know what game you were watching to suggest that Chelsea were neck and neck with them EVER in that match. As for Liverpool, yah they did fight in the first half but again you're acting like losing Mane is what made the difference between 1-0 and 5-0. City dominated the 2nd half and Liverpool being more clinical with their better 1st half chances wouldn't have made a difference in the end (unless you're suggesting they should've scored every shot they had lol). Saying "muh they lost Mane but they were even with them before that" doesn't excuse the ENTIRE 2ND HALF that they got slaughtered in.

As for long balls, you seem to be way off the discussion. Using >10 meter passes from time to time is NOT an attacking via long ball tactic. Switching the play horizontally from high traffic areas is NOT a long ball attacking tactic. It seems that you don't even understand what a "long ball" approach even is. Xavi played long passes, he wasn't a "master" of long ball play because he didn't just spam long ball attempts to get in behind (nor should he have). If you think simply playing long aerial passes is a long ball approach then idk what to tell you. Even the very thing you described (relieving pressure with long passes) is not even an actual attacking method to create chances, just to retain the ball better and play towards space.

My definition of the long ball approach is when teams rely on long balls for their chance creation and forward transition. Teams playing long ball is basically playing the ball from deep straight to the strikers/attackers and try to break down the defense with the pass OR with the chaos resulting from the pass. EPL teams doing that to "get stuck in and win the second ball" is your own proof that they essentially just hope it works and if not just try to win the duel to recover the ball. Almost every single EPL game you'll see a number of times where a team is comfortably in possession but then boots a ball towards their well marked striker and hope to create a chance out of it but mostly just lose possession. This is even more exposed against high pressing and game controlling teams like Pep's that love to recover possession and pin opponents back. It's essentially hit and hope and the teams who circumvent good ground-transition play for long balls as a method for actually getting forward often get punished for it badly.

Your own words said that LONG BALLS are the key to breaking down City's defense and Pep's tactics. That almost explicitly suggests using long balls as the major attacking tactic to get forward and create chances and overcome City. Your own words, not mine. To then go on and rant about long balls as an effective "pressure relief" method and to get out of traffic is wildly out of line with the statements you were making earlier.
 
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M

MessiCam

Guest
Lol, you don't need to worry I watched the games. City dominated Chelsea from start to finish other than a handful of spells, they were in total control a majority of the time. Putting up some resistance doesn't mean that Chelsea were effective and competing on the same level or even close. I don't know what game you were watching to suggest that Chelsea were neck and neck with them EVER in that match. As for Liverpool, yah they did fight in the first half but again you're acting like losing Mane is what made the difference between 1-0 and 5-0. City dominated the 2nd half and Liverpool being more clinical with their better 1st half chances wouldn't have made a difference in the end (unless you're suggesting they should've scored every shot they had lol). Saying "muh they lost Mane but they were even with them before that" doesn't excuse the ENTIRE 2ND HALF that they got slaughtered in.
I'd really appreciate it if you stop putting words in my mouth. I did not say Chelsea were neck and neck with City. I inferred Chelsea were effective against City while Morata was on the field... As for the Liverpool game, it's not about Mane but rather playing with 10 men and Klopp's tactics once that happened that led to the slaughter. Again, you clearly didn't watch the game.

As for long balls, you seem to be way off the discussion. Using >10 meter passes from time to time is NOT an attacking via long ball tactic. Switching the play horizontally from high traffic areas is NOT a long ball attacking tactic. It seems that you don't even understand what a "long ball" approach even is. Xavi played long passes, he wasn't a "master" of long ball play because he didn't just spam long ball attempts to get in behind (nor should he have). If you think simply playing long aerial passes is a long ball approach then idk what to tell you. Even the very thing you described (relieving pressure with long passes) is not even an actual attacking method to create chances, just to retain the ball better and play towards space.

Countering the press with the long ball is not all about attacking. It can be used in a number of ways... And again you seem to be of the impression that I suggest teams play long balls indiscriminately. Read what I post before jumping to illogical conclusions. As for Xavi, I didn't say he was a master of long ball play, I said he was a master of disrupting a teams press by playing long balls whether being horizontally or diagonally. Again I ask, stop putting words in my mouth.

My definition of the long ball approach is when teams rely on long balls for their chance creation and forward transition. Teams playing long ball is basically playing the ball from deep straight to the strikers/attackers and try to break down the defense with the pass OR with the chaos resulting from the pass. EPL teams doing that to "get stuck in and win the second ball" is your own proof that they essentially just hope it works and if not just try to win the duel to recover the ball. Almost every single EPL game you'll see a number of times where a team is comfortably in possession but then boots a ball towards their well marked striker and hope to create a chance out of it but mostly just lose possession. This is even more exposed against high pressing and game controlling teams like Pep's that love to recover possession and pin opponents back. It's essentially hit and hope and the teams who circumvent good ground-transition play for long balls as a method for actually getting forward often get punished for it badly.
Jesus fucking Christ... It's not hit and hope, it's a tactic that buys you time to get your lines sorted as well as the opposition having to build again. There is value in that alone...

And your definition of a long ball is incorrect, what you're referring to is direct play by playing the ball into space so your runners can get onto it.

But this is what I wrote:

That kind of legacy in England? The better Premiership teams break his press with long balls and being physical in winning that second ball.

Teams that counter attack really quickly have always been a weakness for Pep’s tactics. It’s still being felt at Barca today.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s a wonderful brand of football but it won’t last long in the Premier League.


Your own words said that LONG BALLS are the key to breaking down City's defense and Pep's tactics. That almost explicitly suggests using long balls as the major attacking tactic to get forward and create chances and overcome City. Your own words, not mine. To then go on and rant about long balls as an effective "pressure relief" method and to get out of traffic is wildly out of line with the statements you were making earlier.

No. Again, I implore you to read. I said break his press... Whether that be in their own half or in the oppositions doesn't matter.
 

DonAndres

Wild Man of Borneo
I'd really appreciate it if you stop putting words in my mouth. I did not say Chelsea were neck and neck with City. I inferred Chelsea were effective against City while Morata was on the field... As for the Liverpool game, it's not about Mane but rather playing with 10 men and Klopp's tactics once that happened that led to the slaughter. Again, you clearly didn't watch the game.

Lol, paraphrasing what you say isn't "putting words in your mouth". But I guess everything I say doesn't accurately reflect your views, so let's hear it from you.

What point are you making here? You're trying to undermine the idea that City convincingly defeated the 2 big teams they've faced up to this point in the season. Do you think that if Mane didn't get sent off and that Morata didn't get injured, the most likely outcome would've been City losing/drawing those games? That's speculative horseshit but unless you're saying that, you're not making a point at all. City were the better team overall in both of those games, largely independent of losing those players, and asserted their dominance. What do you mean by Chelsea being "effective". With or without Morata they were getting smothered by City and 8/10 times would walk away with a loss in a game that played out the way that one did.


Countering the press with the long ball is not all about attacking. It can be used in a number of ways... And again you seem to be of the impression that I suggest teams play long balls indiscriminately. Read what I post before jumping to illogical conclusions. As for Xavi, I didn't say he was a master of long ball play, I said he was a master of disrupting a teams press by playing long balls whether being horizontally or diagonally. Again I ask, stop putting words in my mouth.

Jesus fucking Christ... It's not hit and hope, it's a tactic that buys you time to get your lines sorted as well as the opposition having to build again. There is value in that alone...

And your definition of a long ball is incorrect, what you're referring to is direct play by playing the ball into space so your runners can get onto it.

No. Again, I implore you to read. I said break his press... Whether that be in their own half or in the oppositions doesn't matter.

Now this part screams utter BS and trying to deflect by pointing to nonsense word choice LOL.

You're saying my definition of long balls is incorrect? And that you're correct in saying that "long ball" tactics refer to just breaking the press and relieving pressure anywhere on the pitch and with passes in any direction?

Don't take it from me, read for your own damn self:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_ball
https://www.newyorker.com/news/sporting-scene/boring-winners-long-ball-england
https://www.fourfourtwo.com/performance/tactics/graham-taylor-playing-long-ball
http://outsideoftheboot.com/2015/02/25/long-ball-ruin-english-football/

These are all the first results from google, didn't have to do any digging whatsoever. Each of these articles uses the term long ball SPECIFICALLY in the context of using it as a direct attacking tactic. They also specifically mention English teams using the long ball approach and the flaws associated with that. YOUR definition of long ball is incorrect and you were the one using it in an incorrect context.

Quotes from the articles:

"In association football (soccer), a long ball is an attempt to move the ball a long distance down the field via a cross, without the intention to pass it to the feet of the receiving player. In Continental Europe the style is called kick and rush.[1] It is a technique that can be especially effective for a team with either fast or tall strikers.[2] The long ball technique is also a through pass from distance in an effort to get the ball by the defensive line and create a foot race between striker and defender.[3] While often derided as either boring or primitive,[4] it can prove effective where players or weather conditions suit this style; in particular, it is an effective counter-attacking style of play in which some defenders can be caught off-guard"

"The long ball strategy has often been criticized as a method that has held back the England national football team. Hughes became the head of coaching at the FA in the 1990s, and used this position to promote his theory of long ball, which followed on from the work of Reep."

"The long ball is sometimes criticized as being used by weaker teams with less tactical skill"

"West Ham’s coach had accused van Gaal of playing “long ball,” a tactic that involves repeatedly sending long, searching passes forward to opportunistic strikers, hoping for a lucky bounce or knock-down near the goal. Long ball eschews the beauty of intricate passing play and coördinated counter-attacks for trial and error: more often than not, the passes are headed out of play or kicked back down the field by the opposing team, caught by the keeper, or go out of bounds."

"The stigmatization of the long ball in England is so strong that it’s not only blamed for our international failures, it’s also blamed for our inability to produce technically gifted players and even cost Tony Pulis his job at Stoke.

Thankfully, in the last decade England recognized the error of their ways and transformed their repulsive football into a more attractive, possession-orientated style."


etc.

There are plenty of other quotes directly backing up what I said. Literally google "long ball football" and you'll see a huge number of articles in which the term "long ball" when used in reference to tactics ALWAYS refers to long balls as a direct attacking method to transition and create chances. Also that those tactics are infamously associated with England/EPL and their poor technical play, just as I've said numerous times in previous posts. All these articles seem to mention long ball with the same reference and the same intention independently, only you have come up with this blatant misunderstanding of what it means and tried to shove that in my face lol.

YOU were the one using the term long ball incorrectly with regards to tactics to describe some BS about switching the play to relieve pressure.
 
M

MessiCam

Guest
Lol, paraphrasing what you say isn't "putting words in your mouth". But I guess everything I say doesn't accurately reflect your views, so let's hear it from you.

What point are you making here? You're trying to undermine the idea that City convincingly defeated the 2 big teams they've faced up to this point in the season. Do you think that if Mane didn't get sent off and that Morata didn't get injured, the most likely outcome would've been City losing/drawing those games? That's speculative horseshit but unless you're saying that, you're not making a point at all. City were the better team overall in both of those games, largely independent of losing those players, and asserted their dominance. What do you mean by Chelsea being "effective". With or without Morata they were getting smothered by City and 8/10 times would walk away with a loss in a game that played out the way that one did.




Now this part screams utter BS and trying to deflect by pointing to nonsense word choice LOL.

You're saying my definition of long balls is incorrect? And that you're correct in saying that "long ball" tactics refer to just breaking the press and relieving pressure anywhere on the pitch and with passes in any direction?

Don't take it from me, read for your own damn self:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_ball
https://www.newyorker.com/news/sporting-scene/boring-winners-long-ball-england
https://www.fourfourtwo.com/performance/tactics/graham-taylor-playing-long-ball
http://outsideoftheboot.com/2015/02/25/long-ball-ruin-english-football/

These are all the first results from google, didn't have to do any digging whatsoever. Each of these articles uses the term long ball SPECIFICALLY in the context of using it as a direct attacking tactic. They also specifically mention English teams using the long ball approach and the flaws associated with that. YOUR definition of long ball is incorrect and you were the one using it in an incorrect context.

Quotes from the articles:

"In association football (soccer), a long ball is an attempt to move the ball a long distance down the field via a cross, without the intention to pass it to the feet of the receiving player. In Continental Europe the style is called kick and rush.[1] It is a technique that can be especially effective for a team with either fast or tall strikers.[2] The long ball technique is also a through pass from distance in an effort to get the ball by the defensive line and create a foot race between striker and defender.[3] While often derided as either boring or primitive,[4] it can prove effective where players or weather conditions suit this style; in particular, it is an effective counter-attacking style of play in which some defenders can be caught off-guard"

"The long ball strategy has often been criticized as a method that has held back the England national football team. Hughes became the head of coaching at the FA in the 1990s, and used this position to promote his theory of long ball, which followed on from the work of Reep."

"The long ball is sometimes criticized as being used by weaker teams with less tactical skill"

"West Ham’s coach had accused van Gaal of playing “long ball,” a tactic that involves repeatedly sending long, searching passes forward to opportunistic strikers, hoping for a lucky bounce or knock-down near the goal. Long ball eschews the beauty of intricate passing play and coördinated counter-attacks for trial and error: more often than not, the passes are headed out of play or kicked back down the field by the opposing team, caught by the keeper, or go out of bounds."

"The stigmatization of the long ball in England is so strong that it’s not only blamed for our international failures, it’s also blamed for our inability to produce technically gifted players and even cost Tony Pulis his job at Stoke.

Thankfully, in the last decade England recognized the error of their ways and transformed their repulsive football into a more attractive, possession-orientated style."


etc.

There are plenty of other quotes directly backing up what I said. Literally google "long ball football" and you'll see a huge number of articles in which the term "long ball" when used in reference to tactics ALWAYS refers to long balls as a direct attacking method to transition and create chances. Also that those tactics are infamously associated with England/EPL and their poor technical play, just as I've said numerous times in previous posts. All these articles seem to mention long ball with the same reference and the same intention independently, only you have come up with this blatant misunderstanding of what it means and tried to shove that in my face lol.

YOU were the one using the term long ball incorrectly with regards to tactics to describe some BS about switching the play to relieve pressure.
You’re just being pedantic.

One is Everton that played long ball football as you describe and the other is Chelsea that used it to release pressure. There is nothing indiscriminate about Chelsea’s use and certainly wasn’t hit and hope.

What would be your description for LONG BALLS used as a tactic counter the press?

Now I’m going to train my Rottweiler and be ready for Barça’s game.
 

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FCBfan22

Senior Member
Ok game by his standards, great game by any other player's standards. He and Paulinho were the difference tonight. Suarez and Pique were the useless and the braindead on the other hand.
 

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