10 - Lionel Messi - v5

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JamDav1982

Senior Member
Origami said:
How did you flip the argument there. That's exactly the point. Messi got to score more easily with better players around him.
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Exactly all players will score more with better players around them as did Messi.

Although dont think Real and Ronaldo has had the far better creative players around him in past few years.
 
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JamDav1982

Senior Member
raskolnikov said:
Its not Messi’s fault there is severe messidependencia in Argentina and Barca. If Higuain could finish chances like he does his pizza they would have 1/2 trophies. Against Chile they just crowd him in midfield like Atletico and Juve did, 4 players constantly on him while all the other players do nothing. What should he do then? Similair to when you would isolate Ronaldo and the team does nothing.
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Messi missed chances and penalties for Argentina also.

Atletico and Juve didnt just crowd him out they were able to stop him fairly easily and his lack of movement and to doing much on ball contributed to that. He was actually quite good away to Juve though and Barcas best plyer in that game.

Ronaldo was Reals top scorer by far and their top in assists in the CL last season. Only second to Neymar.
 
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Ousmane Dembélé

Banned
raskolnikov said:
Its not Messi’s fault there is severe messidependencia in Argentina and Barca. If Higuain could finish chances like he does his pizza they would have 1/2 trophies. Against Chile they just crowd him in midfield like Atletico and Juve did, 4 players constantly on him while all the other players do nothing. What should he do then? Similair to when you would isolate Ronaldo and the team does nothing.
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Of course the teams around him in both Argentina an Barca have been garbage lately, but this does not excuse Messi walking and looking mentally absent during a lot of the big matches. He has the talent, nobody's questioning that, but he doesn't come ready to play a lot of the time in the big matches.

If he's getting marked he should make runs to try and lose his markers or create spaces for other to exploit. I can't justify him standing still, walking and nonchalantly passing the ball sideways no matter how many men are on him.

Argentina are shit and wouldn't made it to the finals that they have without Messi, but everyone calls him the GOAT and praises him endlessly so it's only fair to criticize him when he couldn't turn it up for one of those finals and create a moment of magic to win his country a title. He missed a one on one in the WC Final and missed a penalty in the Copa 16 final. He's been poor in international finals, no doubt about it
 
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messi15478

Banned
As Ousmane Dembele said, Messi is very quiet in big games the last 2-3 years. Against Juve away last season he was very good but the other big matches he was poorly. Of course he must run more in these matches. Look how Ronaldo always run into the spaces which allows his team mates to pass the ball into this space. If you doesnt run into this free space its logical nobody can pass the ball to you.
 
SeloBarca

SeloBarca

Senior Member
JamDav1982 said:
While Messi had a far better team than Ronaldo in the past.

Messi has been poor in a lot of the CL knock out games against better opposition in recent years and needs to get better in them if wants to win balon dor again.
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A player is only as good as the team surrounding him.

But Messi has always been much a "piece" of the play than Ronaldo. Ronaldo has always been the finisher.

What Messi has to do now, Ronaldo has never had to do.
He needs to create everything in buildup, pretty much on his self, he has to make the decisive passes, and he has to pull the team out when struggling.
Messi when he played with Xavi and Iniesta was miles better than Ronaldo is now.

If they were given an even team, both teams helping out both players much more and taking the burden of them, Messi would be way ahead.
Messi is a muc much more complete player, but unfortunally its shadowed by the awfull team he has to play with now, the last 4-5 years has pretty much been wasted.

JamDav1982 said:
No idea but I would think Ronaldo has better conversion rate against top sides in CL knockout in recent years.
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He has indeed, but its mostly becouse of his teammates setting him up.
Check the NT and he has pretty much done nothing where he doesnt have the players play for him.

Messi has to carry both Argentina and Barcelona right now.
 
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Mitchell1978

Senior Member
Ousmane Dembélé said:
This still does not excuse him from going AWOL against Atletico in 15/16 and PSG and Juventus in 16/17 (yes I know he made a few good passes but that's not nearly enough). If Messi had been in even decent form in the 2nd half of 15/16 we could've repeated as treble winners.
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Doubt it even if we went past Atletico, barça was on a downward spiral round that time so i don't think we would have won the competation.
The closest we got last decade was 9/10 and 11/12 after that the only time barça was close and good enough to win it was 14/15 when they did win it.
 
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Stoichkov1

New member
JamDav1982 said:
No they dont. Real play to Ronaldos strengths as Barca have to Messis.

Messi has been far too quiet in too many big CL games in recent years.

Can easily flip the argument and say Messi was only at his best with Iniesta and Xavi peak which is not the case.
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Did you see Real conceding 4 goals against PSG or 3 against Juventus in the UCL knockouts? Messi has been quiet too many times but last season it's undeniable that Real were a far better team than Barcelona.
 
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