10 - Lionel Messi - v5

[Kul_z]

There is no sudden death pressure.

La liga:
Imagine playing round 5 at Betis.
If you lose 2:3, who cares?
Are you dead?
Is the championship done?
Are you KO'd for that season?
= no. You will play better in the next 4-5 rounds and you will neutralize that slip.

You play at Sevilla/Atletico in a round 18.
You lose 0:1.
Are you KO'd?

That is my point.
There is pressure in La liga, but there is always a part: if you lose, you will ALWAYS have time to neutralize those mistakes in upcoming rounds.
There is no "100% urgency".
There is SOME urgency and pressure.
But whatever happens, you will usually have lots of time to fix those mistakes and slips in upcoming weeks or months.

While in a CL against Roma/Juve/anyone, when you start losing 0:2 in the 45th minute, you are in big problems.
You have ONLY 45 minutes to score 2 goals or you are DEAD for this season.
You won't get another chance next week at Las Palmas (or 18 matches till the end of a season) to neutralize your past mistakes.

In that sense, imo, our players are in "a comfort zone".
They know that RM will usually make more mistakes against small teams and so, even if we lose from time to time in La liga, NOTHING significant will happen.
We know that we are too good for La liga, more or less, over 38 rounds.

And then, when we come to a CL and when we start losing, we are in deep problems and can't seem to wake up.
Haven't you had that feeling 100s of times with our team in a CL?
= we are losing, and it seems that we don't have any response, any urgency, we play as if we have 10 days to create something.
While with Rm, for some reason, if they need a goal in a CL in the 85th minute, they will create 10 chances in the last 5+5 minutes through: middle, crosses, solo actions.
YOu know that feeling: Real is losing 1:2 in the 80th minute in a CL, but you "know" that they will score 2 goals, probably in the 88th and in 94th. One will be a pen, other will be Ronaldo's header.
On the other hand, when Barca is losing 1:2 in the 80th minute, more or less, nothing will happen.
We won't get the ball at all, or we will pass it slowly, try some dribbles and at best, we will attempt 1-2 shots. (Ok, there are also rare matches like Psg 6:1).

But now, try to think about this:
1. Barca's motivation in a CL's KO matches.
And Real's motivation.
2. Barca's response and urgency when they are losing in a CL matches.
And then Real's response and urgency.
3. how many times Barca was able to turn the KO match around lately?
How many time Real has done the same?
4. how many times Barca scored (except against Psg) in the last 5-10 minutes?
How many times (lol, 100?) has Real done the same?

Barca became a complacent, entitled and "a comfort zone" team.
We know that we are kings of La liga.
We will win in the end, no matter what.
And so we don't have too much pressure or urgency, imo.

On the other hand, when we play in a CL, we face exactly the same problems in each season.
Add to this that Barca is Messi-dependant and that Messi has some mental strength issues lately.
And now, mix our complacent-comfort zone team with Messi who sulks under pressure lately (when we start to lose) and you get Atletico, Juventus, Roma over and over again, like looking the same match all the time.



There is a word for this: delusion.

This shit (sorry for being harsh) exists only on Barca's forum:
1. when RM is winning titles: their crossing style sucks. Our Barca's style is awesome, and we will stick to it, even though we aren't winning anything in Europe anymore.
So, RM is banging titles, but we are "the moral winners", because we play our unique (losing) style, lol.
2. when CR7 is scoring goals, key goals and winning trophies, Messi is again a winner.
Because there is so much more in football than goals and trophies.

Basically, in short:
1. when Barca and Messi win=we are winning because we are the best
2. when RM and CR7 win=they are winning because of luck, the devil, refs, opponents mistakes. And we are still true winners, because in football there is much more than goals, trophies and winning, lol.

When Barca is winning sextuples=stats and trophies matter.
When Messi is banging 50 goals per season=stats and goals matter.
When Messi and Barca start losing=there is much more to football than stats



I have said already, I SOOOO want us to buy Thiago now and to play Cou-Thiago-Busi in 433.
Then I'll prepare 1000 portions of popcorn and read million of alibies why aren't we winning shit.
Because it is 2018/19 and it won't work anymore.

Remember:
1. No Xavi-Iniesta anymore
2. teams learned how to play against our 433
3. Messi was younger and playing at a RW
4. we had 2 wingers who defended (or at least one, Pedro)
5. we had Alves as a false midfielder, we actually played with 4 midfielders and 3 attackers who were defending

Today:
Thiago-Coutinho, lol.
Teams evolved against us.
Messi is not a RW, but dropping deep.
In attack: Suarez, Messi and Dembele defending, lol. Behind them Coutinho defending, lol? This sounds awesome...
No Alves.

I mean, if everything will click perfectly, this team could only be a poor, poor, poor copy of that team on every level.

Oh ffs. Point is, we need messi at the final third, and players that are able to back it up. Like you saw, our style has evolved in some utter shit performances.
Coutinho-thiago lol?
Mats
Semedo pique umtiti alba
Busi
Thiago raki coutinho(or other variations)
Messi dembouz(suarez fat cunt)
This team under ev could do wonders. Tech as fuck with coutinhos long shots(actually an upgrade from xavi and iniesta for buses) busi raki thiago sounds like dealing with pressure would be a joke + coutinho and dembouz helping.
Left flank with alba coutinho and dembouz would be fire, right flank not much because alves ofc was one of a kind.

 

[Vilarrubi]

Get off his nuts. Clear as day you're deluded by your fanboyism. I'm a huge fan of Messi as well but that doesn't stop me from thinking rationally.

I will praise him if he plays well as he usually does and criticize him on the rare occasions his play disappoints. I'm well aware of the limitations of this teammates on the NT.

Can't take folks like you seriously that will come up with every excuse under the sun to defend his poor performances. Even the best have days off, don't take it personally.

I agree with parts of what you said but he does have a point...

Until Aguero scored no one else except Messi had scored for Argentina in 19 months ago.

In qualifying WITHOUT Messi they got 7 points from 24.... WITH Messi they got 21 from 30.

You'll not find a more "One Man Team" in football.

 

[MessiCam]

There is a word for this: delusion.

You're the delusional one... You see only with your eyes so you're easy to fool.

1. when RM is winning titles: their crossing style sucks. Our Barca's style is awesome, and we will stick to it, even though we aren't winning anything in Europe anymore.
So, RM is banging titles, but we are "the moral winners", because we play our unique (losing) style, lol.

Since Ronaldo has joined Madrid here is the trophy hall

Barcelona 24 vs Real Madrid 17

So yes, we played our style and have been more successful... The stink now is due to us deviating from that style by signing Rakitic, Gomes, Arda like types which have not only impacted the quality of the football but the depth of the sqaud too.

2. when CR7 is scoring goals, key goals and winning trophies, Messi is again a winner. Because there is so much more in football than goals and trophies.

Messi La Liga goals vs Ronaldo goals since he joined Madrid - 329 vs 311
Messi CL goals vs Ronaldo goals since he joined Madrid - 83 vs 105

Trophies as above are in favour of Barcelona...

When Barca is winning sextuples=stats and trophies matter.
When Messi is banging 50 goals per season=stats and goals matter.
When Messi and Barca start losing=there is much more to football than stats

Nobody said that... Stop making shit up. Their stats are remarkably similar and one is a 9 while the other plays in deeper areas.

I have said already, I SOOOO want us to buy Thiago now and to play Cou-Thiago-Busi in 433.
Then I'll prepare 1000 portions of popcorn and read million of alibies why aren't we winning shit.
Because it is 2018/19 and it won't work anymore.

Remember:
1. No Xavi-Iniesta anymore
2. teams learned how to play against our 433
3. Messi was younger and playing at a RW
4. we had 2 wingers who defended (or at least one, Pedro)
5. we had Alves as a false midfielder, we actually played with 4 midfielders and 3 attackers who were defending

Today:
Thiago-Coutinho, lol.
Teams evolved against us.
Messi is not a RW, but dropping deep.
In attack: Suarez, Messi and Dembele defending, lol. Behind them Coutinho defending, lol? This sounds awesome...
No Alves.

I mean, if everything will click perfectly, this team could only be a poor, poor, poor copy of that team on every level.

Lol. Your grand idea of workhorses and physical players saw us dumped out of the Champions League (which you have an unhealthy obsession with) in the most embarrassing fashion while playing atrocious football which culminated in scoring only 17 goals of which 5 were own goals and which Messi scored half of and then you're audacious enough to criticise his contribution.

You also seem to cling onto the idea that we expect a clone of Xavi and Iniesta... This is more delusion on your part and ties in well with what I said in that reality is far too complex for most people. Most of us want a return to what has brought us success in the first place.

Barcelona will never win in Europe in the manner that you want and they've never done so previously in any era but you want us to play a brand of football that is both shit on a stick and unsuccessful for us just because Madrid are putting crosses into the box. Shoo fly...

You're what people call a fairweather fan... Only here for the success but not for the good of the club.

 

[MessiCam]

I agree with parts of what you said but he does have a point...

Until Aguero scored no one else except Messi had scored for Argentina in 19 months ago.

In qualifying WITHOUT Messi they got 7 points from 24.... WITH Messi they got 21 from 30.

You'll not find a more "One Man Team" in football.

You can't argue with someone that says this;

Low block or no low block if he goes missing or fails to be to be decisive in a 2nd consecutive match, Argentina drop points and crash out of the group stage the brunt of the blame will fall on his shoulders and most of it will be deserved.

As if Messi is the only player on the team. Criticise him for his performances, I don't take issue with that, but when you spew garbage of this magnitude and mentally weak, not a leader etc then there is no turning back.

 

[Vilarrubi]

You can't argue with someone that says this;



As if Messi is the only player on the team. Criticise him for his performances, I don't take issue with that, but when you spew garbage of this magnitude and mentally weak, not a leader etc then there is no turning back.

Probably a troll account who supports United with that many posts..

 

[henias]

Messi is the GOAT but i think it's way harder to build a team around him than for example Ronaldo. You can use Ronaldo as your target and he isn't really involved in anything besides finishing so his impact on the teams overall performance isn't that big what means less pressure on him.

With Messi it's more difficult. You either give up on a tall striker or wings or a 3 man midfield with him because he seems to always play the same position no matter what anyway. With Messi as a number 10 you put immense pressure on the double pivot since he can't defend and it results in "giving the ball to Messi" as your midfield plan because that's just how it will play out 9 out of 10 times.

The only way to have 3 midfielders with Messi is him playing as "wing" or CF. We all know how RW Messi looks like in reality and Messi as false 9 means no real striker in the box...that's kinda tough for a coach.

Reals solution with Ronaldo being more of a striker than a LW these days is Marcelo and to an extent Carvajal. Having wingbacks like that (especially Marcelo) gives you so much more freedom with your formation because your LB pretty much covers two positions at once just like Alves did. But Alba and Roberto/Semedo aren't good enough to do that and our CMs aren't on Isco/Modric/Kroos level what makes our 4-4-2 way worse than that of Real Madrid.

IMO the best solution would be going back to false 9 and stick to plan A like we used to do. Not perfect but at least we can keep 3 midfielders and 2 wingers this way. Or at least sign a new striker because besides tap ins Suarez doesn't provide much "real striker" quality these days, Roberto crossing on Suarez wont do shit so we might as well try to go for Cou longshots as our plan B and have a tall striker on the bench.

It's just coaches and teams find it harder to complement Messi's qualities than it is for Ronaldo's. Ronaldo's strengths are pretty much aerial abilities and channeling through counter attacks while for Messi you need to know how to link up well and create a multitude of spaces for him to be extremely lethal (Pep figured it out). Obviously both styles have their various disadvantages and advantages. It doesnt necessarily mean Messi isnt as effective as Ronaldo.

I've mentioned this before. In a 4231, Messi is bascially trapped in the middle, and he is forced to drop very deep. I've always said false 9 is his best position, of course another solution is RW but he still plays centrally. And at least he gets a free fluid 3 men midfield than a static double pivot. Aguero, Pavon and Messi can also occasionally interchange positions. Our so called 442 just doesnt work well for players like Messi, sure its not wrong to have a 442, but when you have players like Messi it's just not working.

Obviously Sampaoli is just another idiot whose only tactic is to pass to Messi while Valverde is another blockhead obssessed with 442.

 

[Morten]

Messi is the GOAT but i think it's way harder to build a team around him than for example Ronaldo. You can use Ronaldo as your target and he isn't really involved in anything besides finishing so his impact on the teams overall performance isn't that big what means less pressure on him.

With Messi it's more difficult. You either give up on a tall striker or wings or a 3 man midfield with him because he seems to always play the same position no matter what anyway. With Messi as a number 10 you put immense pressure on the double pivot since he can't defend and it results in "giving the ball to Messi" as your midfield plan because that's just how it will play out 9 out of 10 times.

The only way to have 3 midfielders with Messi is him playing as "wing" or CF. We all know how RW Messi looks like in reality and Messi as false 9 means no real striker in the box...that's kinda tough for a coach.

Reals solution with Ronaldo being more of a striker than a LW these days is Marcelo and to an extent Carvajal. Having wingbacks like that (especially Marcelo) gives you so much more freedom with your formation because your LB pretty much covers two positions at once just like Alves did. But Alba and Roberto/Semedo aren't good enough to do that and our CMs aren't on Isco/Modric/Kroos level what makes our 4-4-2 way worse than that of Real Madrid.

IMO the best solution would be going back to false 9 and stick to plan A like we used to do. Not perfect but at least we can keep 3 midfielders and 2 wingers this way. Or at least sign a new striker because besides tap ins Suarez doesn't provide much "real striker" quality these days, Roberto crossing on Suarez wont do shit so we might as well try to go for Cou longshots as our plan B and have a tall striker on the bench.

Messi is the better player, he can do pretty much everything with the ball, but there is some truth in what you say.
Its easy to build a team around Ronaldo, because the way he works is simple, just get some accurate crosses in the box or throughballs, Ronaldo will do the rest.
No need for fancy build-up, just get some crosses in. At times it really feels like any type of ball inside the box will result in a goal or a chance, due to Ronaldos movement and arial ability.

 

[Barca83]

Yes, Messi biggest problem is that he tactically conditions a team. That’s his biggest weakness.

That and his lack of effort and walking around in so many matches.
Still GOAT but it shouldn't be as close as it is

 

[henias]

That and his lack of effort and walking around in so many matches.
Still GOAT but it shouldn't be as close as it is

I agree. Messi has been walking ever since 2010 but his output/dribbling has dropped in recent years. He really needs to compensate with more movement and play more simple one touch football. That way he can still execute those dangerous moves in more favourable situations than to walk without the ball and try to do much more with the ball even when faced with two blocks of solid defence; it's just not working. During Lucho's season, Messi is more robust off the ball and more effective and direct with the ball. It should be this way.

He needs to adapt his playstyle and coach needs to deploy him back to a false 9. I wouldnt pin Iceland's loss on Messi but both coach and player has to something. Someone needs to recognise this before it's too late.

 

[Demog]

Messi is unlucky that he's part of such a dire Argentina team. At least three of their starters in the WC are not even regulars at their clubs (Caballero, Masc, Rojo). Di Maria is a luxury and usually a liability. They don't know how to use a great talent like Dybala. Otamendi is average at best yet he's their main defender. Apart from Messi, Aguero and Dybala, this is a weak group of players for Argentina's standards.

 

[Mitchell1978]

I agree. Messi has been walking ever since 2010 but his output/dribbling has dropped in recent years.

This is just not true, the amount of total succesfull dribbles or his average dribbles per game in La Liga was the second highest of his career after the 10/11 season.

Before commenting people should really look at the actual stats.

 

[MessiCam]

This is just not true, the amount of total succesfull dribbles or his average dribbles per game in La Liga was the second highest of his career after the 10/11 season.

Before commenting people should really look at the actual stats.

Yep, it is more than his False 9 levels but that’s because he is getting the ball deeper now.

 

[henias]

This is just not true, the amount of total succesfull dribbles or his average dribbles per game in La Liga was the second highest of his career after the 10/11 season.

Before commenting people should really look at the actual stats.

I didn't specifically mentioned this season, but as a whole in recent years. No doubt he is on a decline, if you are looking at La Liga specifically than of course, it's one of his best output. It's clear he lost some of his pace which affected his little bursts of speed. This season I have said before he is great form, no doubt about it.

And yes, he plays very much a deeper role now hence the stats.

It's insane to say he is the same dribbler as he was 7-8 years ago. Messi just adapted his game.

 

[Barca83]

"For the World Cup, Messi is more important than the national team itself, it means there are no more leaders.

"Do you think that Messi does not form the template? Why is not defenders like Garay?"

"Messi does what he wants, he has been doing what he feels like in Argentina for eight years.

“He does not want high-profile players.”

Starting to wonder if this is true, the team they're expected to use vs Croatia is filled with average no name players

 

[DonAK]

"For the World Cup, Messi is more important than the national team itself, it means there are no more leaders.

"Do you think that Messi does not form the template? Why is not defenders like Garay?"

"Messi does what he wants, he has been doing what he feels like in Argentina for eight years.

“He does not want high-profile players.”

Starting to wonder if this is true, the team they're expected to use vs Croatia is filled with average no name players

Messi want nothing more than to win with Argentina. When Sampaoli asked about him about individual players he told him to do his job and not involve him in the selection process. If you want to believe tabloid paper bullshit then it's on you.

Garay wasn't selected by Tata and Bauza either after an incident with the team in 2015 where he ditched the player camp or hotel. Something like that.