It's right though, Messi's off the ball movement and workrate is not good. One of the reasons why he can't play Right Wing anymore
10 - Lionel Messi - v5
- Thread starter Barcaman
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It's right though, Messi's off the ball movement and workrate is not good. One of the reasons why he can't play Right Wing anymore
M
MessiCam
Guest
No. It was published after one game in which Argentina saw an inordinate amount of the ball with Messi playing in the hole with 2 defensively minded players behind him. The article says he ran 7.61km in total and 1.42 while not in possession. Meaning he ran some 6.2km with the ball at his feet... Mainly in oppositions half. That’s an awful lot of work on the ball. Why wasn’t that distance in comparison to his peers highlighted?
We already know that Messi doesn’t defend (poor workrate) so some part of that difference is covered by exactly that. Now take into account that Argentina saw so much of the ball that whatever pressing, minimal as it may be in terms of Messi, just didn’t happen. As for making half the number of sprints... Well, sprint to where exactly? He was up against a low block and he was tasked with making plays... Coutinho and Özil played in very open, end to end, matches.
If the article was written to highlight Messi’s shortcomings then it has failed spectacularly but if it was written to highlight the one man nature of Argentina’s game then it is fair enough.
There's stats from the last World Cup and Champions League showing the same thing. Messi simply moves less than virtually any other outfield player in the world.
M
MessiCam
Guest
Right, but we already knew that. Why don’t we now compare how much all those players move with the ball?
Edit: So I've found the full stats...
Messi vs Iceland
Total distance = 7.617
In possession = 4.722
Not in possession = 1.420
Difference = 1.475
0 - 7km/h = 83% - 5.097m
7 - 15km/h = 13% - 799m
15 - 20km/h = 3% - 184m
20 - 25km/h = 1% - 61m
> 25km/h = 0%
In possession = 4.722
Not in possession = 1.420
Difference = 1.475
0 - 7km/h = 83% - 5.097m
7 - 15km/h = 13% - 799m
15 - 20km/h = 3% - 184m
20 - 25km/h = 1% - 61m
> 25km/h = 0%
Aguero vs Iceland
Total distance = 9.313
In possession = 5.449
Not in possession = 2.048
Difference = 1.816
0 - 7km/h = 71% - 5323m
7 - 15km/h = 23% - 1724m
15 - 20km/h = 5% - 375m
20 - 25km/h = 1% - 75m
> 25km/h = 0%
In possession = 5.449
Not in possession = 2.048
Difference = 1.816
0 - 7km/h = 71% - 5323m
7 - 15km/h = 23% - 1724m
15 - 20km/h = 5% - 375m
20 - 25km/h = 1% - 75m
> 25km/h = 0%
Ronaldo vs Morocco
Total distance = 8.814
In possession = 3.066
Not in possession = 3.254
Difference = 2.494
0 - 7km/h = 76% - 4803m
7 - 15km/h = 19% - 1201m
15 - 20km/h = 3% - 190m
20 - 25km/h = 1% - 63m
> 25km/h = 1% - 63m
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serghei
Senior Member
MTL_Barca
Well-known member
Where can i look these up?
snowy
Well-known member
Nice attack-oriented line-up allowing the front 3 to stay in the final 3rd. In defense, it could quickly switch to 5-2-3 with box to box Taglia and Pavon.
Strong arguments for Armani as primary keeper vs Caballero. Armani was so good playing for Atlético Nacional that the Colombian FA tried to nationalize him so he could represent Columbia at the World Cup. Early this year, he was bought by River Plate where he kept 13 clean sheets out of 21 matches (52 saves from 62 shots at goal). He's reputed for his ultra quick reflexes and penalty+FK stopping skills.
raskolnikov
Well-known member
Atleast Messi wont be facing a bus today. He can do what he does best. They need a good performance a d a win today if they want to qualify or it will be very tough and they would need a win vs boogie team Nigeria.
M
MessiCam
Guest
On the FIFA World Cup site. Go to the game in question, click on match facts and there will be a whole lot of PDF’s at the bottom of the page. Select tracking info.
I’m confused by the difference between total distance covered and in possession and not in possession. Must be celebrations, free kicks, throw ins etc. But it seems an unusually high amount.
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M
MessiCam
Guest
They will almost certainly be facing a block of some kind. Whether that’s a low or medium block we will find out game time. Easiest way to hinder Messi is through a block of some kind.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Messi is in the last 5 years good ONLY in La liga and in a CL group stage.
In CL knockout matches quarters, semis and finals, in the last 5 seasons, in 13 matches, he didn't score in 12 matches (Atletico/Atletico 2014, Psg/PSg 2015 Bayern x1 2015, Juventus 2015, Atletico/Atletico 2016, Psg/Psg 2017, Juventus/Juventus 2017, Roma/Roma 2018).
NT matches, very meh.
CR7: good in La liga, but not as good as Messi.
World class in a CL knockout matches.
Better in NT team (titles, goals).
So, when people "defend" Messi, the only arguments left are:
Messi won more La ligas over 10-12 years.
Messi is coring more goals in La liga (over the whole career or in the last 5 years).
And Messi won more La ligas in the last 5 years.
In a CL, it is 4:5 for CR7.
In NT titles it is 0:1.
In the last 5 years, it is 4:1 in Cls and 1:0 in NTs.
So, basically, over the whole career, the only thing where Messi is better in terms of titles are La Ligas (I won't even mention CDR, does anybody besides us still care about it?).
And we can talk how La liga is the most important blah blah, but for 99% of fans, Champions league and World cup/Euros/Copa America are the biggest trophies.
And we can say all what we want, but CR7 is banging titles from this or that reason, in the biggest tournaments.
While Messi is a king of La liga against Getafe, Levante and Las Palmas in the last 5 years...
Lewandowski: suck in a CL. Can't lead his NT team alone.
Kane: nothing in a CL. We'll see about an NT team.
Messi has won 2 CLs with Xavi-Iniesta.
In the last 7 years, without their prime help, Messi has won only 1 CL in 7 years.
Honestly, that is not good enough, if he is SUCH an infuental player, if you get me.
If you are that good and THAT much better than others, you should be able to lead a team to glory EVEN if your teammates are not Xavi and Iniesta. (Not all the time. But once in a while, yes)
So, Messi was mostly winning in a CL when he had Xavi and Iniesta.
CR7 is mostly winning with Kroos-Modric.
So, both of them were winning mostly when they had support.
The sad thing is, Messi won only 2 CLs in 4-5 years with a world class support.
CR7 won 4 Cls in 5 years with a world class support.
So, again:
They both need support.
When they have support, CR7 is again able to win more CLs and win more trophies.
When they don't have a support, they both mostly suck and can't do too much (CR7 during Pep's era, and Messi during RM's last 5 years).
But again, what is worse, CR7 managed to lead crappy Portugal to Euros 2016 glory.
So, sadly, if you look in an objective way in terms of major trophies, CR7 is just better (in terms of major trophies) over their whole career.
Messi's only advantage are La ligas.
"My problem" lately with Messi is that he hasn't delivered AS MUCH as he could have on a highest level, based on his potential.
It is easy to win with Xavi and Iniesta.
But the same as with world class goalkeepers: all Gks will do "normal" saves.
But from a world class GK, you expect some extraordinary saves, which others can't do.
Messi, in that analogy, is playing like "a regular " goalkeeper lately.
He is not making blunders, but he isn't making any voodoo-magic saves anymore.
When a ball is near him, he will save the shot.
When a ball is going into a corner, he won't be able to do a wonder save anymore.
So, yes, Messi's La Ligas records are awesome.
But other than that, he did dissapoint in CLs post Pep, and on an NT level.
Especially considering Messi's talent and seeing how a guy with a way weaker talent (CR7) is doing crazy-voodoo-shit in terms of banging CLs and NT titles.
Then you have to ask yourself: is Messi really living up to his TRUE potential, and could have he done way more (especially in the last 5 years)?
The same as how Ronaldinho and Neymar didn't reach their full potential, imo, Messi could have done way more in the 2nd part of his career.
His 1st part was awesome. He was living up to his potential.
But a 2nd part, imo, is below his potential (in terms of trophies and being a key/decisive man in a CL/NT tournaments).
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Raketa10
Senior Member
I corrected that for you
Messi was brilliant in 2014/15 CL season. He destroyed Bayern single-handedly in semis that season. I also don't understand your constatation that Ronaldo an Messi need support. Well the grass is green and the sky is blue!!! Of Course they need support this is football (not tennis) with 11 players on the field, without support you can't do shit.
It is easy to win with Xavi and Iniesta and with Kroos and Modric?!?! Really? You can say the same for Jordan. It was easy to win with Pippen, Rodman and Kukoc. For wining you need a team and not ONE player. You also need a good manager. That's why we call it a team sport. Can LeBron win NBA on his own? Well we witnessed how that ended this year. BBZ I respect your writing in general but this post is below you.
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