10 - Lionel Messi - v5

[MTL_Barca]

Messi is in the last 5 years good ONLY in La liga and in a CL group stage.
In CL knockout matches quarters, semis and finals, in the last 5 seasons, in 13 matches, he didn't score in 12 matches (Atletico/Atletico 2014, Psg/PSg 2015 Bayern x1 2015, Juventus 2015, Atletico/Atletico 2016, Psg/Psg 2017, Juventus/Juventus 2017, Roma/Roma 2018).
NT matches, very meh.

CR7: good in La liga, but not as good as Messi.
World class in a CL knockout matches.
Better in NT team (titles, goals).

So, when people "defend" Messi, the only arguments left are:
Messi won more La ligas over 10-12 years.
Messi is coring more goals in La liga (over the whole career or in the last 5 years).
And Messi won more La ligas in the last 5 years.

In a CL, it is 4:5 for CR7.
In NT titles it is 0:1.
In the last 5 years, it is 4:1 in Cls and 1:0 in NTs.

So, basically, over the whole career, the only thing where Messi is better in terms of titles are La Ligas (I won't even mention CDR, does anybody besides us still care about it?).
And we can talk how La liga is the most important blah blah, but for 99% of fans, Champions league and World cup/Euros/Copa America are the biggest trophies.
And we can say all what we want, but CR7 is banging titles from this or that reason, in the biggest tournaments.

While Messi is a king of La liga against Getafe, Levante and Las Palmas in the last 5 years...

Lewandowski: suck in a CL. Can't lead his NT team alone.
Kane: nothing in a CL. We'll see about an NT team.



Messi has won 2 CLs with Xavi-Iniesta.
In the last 7 years, without their prime help, Messi has won only 1 CL in 7 years.

Honestly, that is not good enough, if he is SUCH an infuental player, if you get me.
If you are that good and THAT much better than others, you should be able to lead a team to glory EVEN if your teammates are not Xavi and Iniesta. (Not all the time. But once in a while, yes)

So, Messi was mostly winning in a CL when he had Xavi and Iniesta.
CR7 is mostly winning with Kroos-Modric.
So, both of them were winning mostly when they had support.
The sad thing is, Messi won only 2 CLs in 4-5 years with a world class support.
CR7 won 4 Cls in 5 years with a world class support.

So, again:
They both need support.
When they have support, CR7 is again able to win more CLs and win more trophies.
When they don't have a support, they both mostly suck and can't do too much (CR7 during Pep's era, and Messi during RM's last 5 years).
But again, what is worse, CR7 managed to lead crappy Portugal to Euros 2016 glory.

So, sadly, if you look in an objective way in terms of major trophies, CR7 is just better (in terms of major trophies) over their whole career.
Messi's only advantage are La ligas.

"My problem" lately with Messi is that he hasn't delivered AS MUCH as he could have on a highest level, based on his potential.
It is easy to win with Xavi and Iniesta.
But the same as with world class goalkeepers: all Gks will do "normal" saves.
But from a world class GK, you expect some extraordinary saves, which others can't do.

Messi, in that analogy, is playing like "a regular " goalkeeper lately.
He is not making blunders, but he isn't making any voodoo-magic saves anymore.
When a ball is near him, he will save the shot.
When a ball is going into a corner, he won't be able to do a wonder save anymore.

So, yes, Messi's La Ligas records are awesome.
But other than that, he did dissapoint in CLs post Pep, and on an NT level.
Especially considering Messi's talent and seeing how a guy with a way weaker talent (CR7) is doing crazy-voodoo-shit in terms of banging CLs and NT titles.

Then you have to ask yourself: is Messi really living up to his TRUE potential, and could have he done way more (especially in the last 5 years)?
The same as how Ronaldinho and Neymar didn't reach their full potential, imo, Messi could have done way more in the 2nd part of his career.
His 1st part was awesome. He was living up to his potential.
But a 2nd part, imo, is below his potential (in terms of trophies and being a key/decisive man in a CL/NT tournaments).

Football is a team sport no matter how good you are these days no player can carry a team to a CL win alone. It's not just midfield support it's about all the other 10 players on the field and the subs (rotations) and the coach.

It wasn't Messis fault we didn't win more CLs with our golden generation just as it's not on CR7 that Madrid won 3 in a row. Just look at the last season, CR had great numbers in CL but he was gone in semis and in the final. Like he completenly vanished vs Bayern for example, but Madrid won anyway. How can you break that down to one player? That's just stupid.


I would even agree Messi doesn't live up to his true potential, i don't think he has the spirit of Ronaldo. People can hate him all they want and i do too but i have to respect Ronaldos work ethics and tbh i don't feel Messi is anywhere near him in that aspect so maybe he could be better but it's still not right to blame everything on him. Messi is the GOAT but he could be even better, but that's no excuse for the teams around him since no matter if Barca or NT he is the best player by far like it's not even close so working on the things around him should have priority instead of doing nothing to help while expecting him to be even better.

 

[dakt]

It will be hard to watch tonight's game vs Argentina, my country vs the best player I have ever witnessed bar none.

 

[ebc_99]

Messi is in the last 5 years good ONLY in La liga and in a CL group stage.
In CL knockout matches quarters, semis and finals, in the last 5 seasons, in 13 matches, he didn't score in 12 matches (Atletico/Atletico 2014, Psg/PSg 2015 Bayern x1 2015, Juventus 2015, Atletico/Atletico 2016, Psg/Psg 2017, Juventus/Juventus 2017, Roma/Roma 2018).
NT matches, very meh.

CR7: good in La liga, but not as good as Messi.
World class in a CL knockout matches.
Better in NT team (titles, goals).

So, when people "defend" Messi, the only arguments left are:
Messi won more La ligas over 10-12 years.
Messi is coring more goals in La liga (over the whole career or in the last 5 years).
And Messi won more La ligas in the last 5 years.

In a CL, it is 4:5 for CR7.
In NT titles it is 0:1.
In the last 5 years, it is 4:1 in Cls and 1:0 in NTs.

So, basically, over the whole career, the only thing where Messi is better in terms of titles are La Ligas (I won't even mention CDR, does anybody besides us still care about it?).
And we can talk how La liga is the most important blah blah, but for 99% of fans, Champions league and World cup/Euros/Copa America are the biggest trophies.
And we can say all what we want, but CR7 is banging titles from this or that reason, in the biggest tournaments.

While Messi is a king of La liga against Getafe, Levante and Las Palmas in the last 5 years...

Lewandowski: suck in a CL. Can't lead his NT team alone.
Kane: nothing in a CL. We'll see about an NT team.



Messi has won 2 CLs with Xavi-Iniesta.
In the last 7 years, without their prime help, Messi has won only 1 CL in 7 years.

Honestly, that is not good enough, if he is SUCH an infuental player, if you get me.
If you are that good and THAT much better than others, you should be able to lead a team to glory EVEN if your teammates are not Xavi and Iniesta. (Not all the time. But once in a while, yes)

So, Messi was mostly winning in a CL when he had Xavi and Iniesta.
CR7 is mostly winning with Kroos-Modric.
So, both of them were winning mostly when they had support.
The sad thing is, Messi won only 2 CLs in 4-5 years with a world class support.
CR7 won 4 Cls in 5 years with a world class support.

So, again:
They both need support.
When they have support, CR7 is again able to win more CLs and win more trophies.
When they don't have a support, they both mostly suck and can't do too much (CR7 during Pep's era, and Messi during RM's last 5 years).
But again, what is worse, CR7 managed to lead crappy Portugal to Euros 2016 glory.

So, sadly, if you look in an objective way in terms of major trophies, CR7 is just better (in terms of major trophies) over their whole career.
Messi's only advantage are La ligas.

"My problem" lately with Messi is that he hasn't delivered AS MUCH as he could have on a highest level, based on his potential.
It is easy to win with Xavi and Iniesta.
But the same as with world class goalkeepers: all Gks will do "normal" saves.
But from a world class GK, you expect some extraordinary saves, which others can't do.

Messi, in that analogy, is playing like "a regular " goalkeeper lately.
He is not making blunders, but he isn't making any voodoo-magic saves anymore.
When a ball is near him, he will save the shot.
When a ball is going into a corner, he won't be able to do a wonder save anymore.

So, yes, Messi's La Ligas records are awesome.
But other than that, he did dissapoint in CLs post Pep, and on an NT level.
Especially considering Messi's talent and seeing how a guy with a way weaker talent (CR7) is doing crazy-voodoo-shit in terms of banging CLs and NT titles.

Then you have to ask yourself: is Messi really living up to his TRUE potential, and could have he done way more (especially in the last 5 years)?
The same as how Ronaldinho and Neymar didn't reach their full potential, imo, Messi could have done way more in the 2nd part of his career.
His 1st part was awesome. He was living up to his potential.
But a 2nd part, imo, is below his potential (in terms of trophies and being a key/decisive man in a CL/NT tournaments).

People defend Messi because he plays much better than any other player in the world. Ronaldo has scored more goals in Europe recently but his performances haven't been much better than Messi's. CR7 just has a habit of popping up with goals even when playing poorly,but when he doesn't score he provides little unlike Messi.

Messi doesn't have teammates who step up and perform when he has a bad game. Look at the Champions league final, Real are struggling to create anything, Ronaldo is having a terrible game so Zidane puts Bale on who wins the game for his team, and people like you will say Ronaldo won another Champions League, he didn't, Real Madrid won it. Barca have never been able to make a sub like that, we don't have the players.

This season Ronaldo was poor from the qf second leg that's 4 poor games in a row but his team won anyway that doesn't happen with Barca. Ronaldo benefits more from Real than the other way round.

Ronaldo hasn't been better for his NT, again, he didn't play in the final and one of his teammates won the game for his team and Ronaldo gets the credit. He had an average tournament whilst Messi was fantastic in the Copa.

La Liga makes up 80% of the season, to say it's not important is ridiculous, and it isn't just against Getafe and Las Palmes as you well know, he does it just as often against Real and Atletico.

Messi has 9 titles, 4 Champions leagues and 6 Copa's that's 19 in total.
Ronaldo has 5 titles, 5 Champions leagues and 3 cups as well as a European Championship that makes 14. Messi is 3 years younger as well so I think will probably add more than Ronaldo.

But you can't judge a player by how many trophies they have won, you judge them by how they play the game and Messi kills Ronaldo in this department and everyone else for that matter.

How many Copa Libatatores did Pele win? How many European Cups did Maradona win? Who cares. They are rated on how they played the game just like Messi, Ronaldo is rated by how many trophies his team wins and how many goals he scores. Nobody ever tells us what makes Ronaldo a better player it's always nonsense like he is clutch, his mentality, his goals etc. The reason for that is that they can't because he is a far inferior player to Messi and everyone even his fans know it, you know it.

 

[BBZ8800]

Sorry ebc, I gave up from repying at your post in the moment when I have seen that you are mentioning Copa del rey trophies alongside Champions league and Euros.

Please, don't mention Cdr trophies in any serious discussion.

 

[Sekou]

... he is a far inferior player to Messi and everyone even his fans know it, you know it.

Great rebuttal, I agree with your post.

It's always nonsense like he is clutch, his mentality, his goals etc.

This, however, isn't "nonsense". Ronaldo's ability to always snatch key goals, especially when his team is losing, is something to behold in itself. How often have we seen Real Madrid and Portugal players with their heads hanging low and then Ronaldo comes out of nowhere. And he just always is that first person to be perfectly positioned in the box, get on the end of that corner or manage to sneak a shot on goal that somehow goes in. Whenever I watch a game he's in, I can never ever count him out. I've been proven wrong by him too many times in the last couple of years to ignore that he is an absolute game changer. That is down to mental power, it's part of being an impeccable athlete and it's not something I've seen in any other footballer at this level. It's the one thing he has over Messi and it's perfectly exemplified by who scores those crucial penalties (Chelsea 2012, Copa 2016, Iceland and a few others vs. various CL campaigns including this one or the recent game vs. Spain) and who doesn't.

It doesn't make him a better footballer, but it has given him those superstar moments that if Messi hadn't missed out on when he had the opportunity, would have made this entire debate a pointless matter - which, imo, it was up until about 4 years ago.

 

[dakt]

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION]

Stop drooling over Ronaldo. He was pure shit for most of the season. Had couple of good games and it's all forgotten. Just imagine Messi in this RM squad. Enough said.

 

[BBZ8800]

Also, what annoys me to some extent is this reply: Barca sucks, Barca's midfield sucks, this is why Messi wasn't winning.

Look at this:
2016: Cr7 31 years, CM pair: Modric 31, Kroos 26
2017: Cr7 32 years, Modric almost 32, Kroos 27
2018: Cr7 33 years, Modric almost 33, Kroos 28

Now, post Pep:
2012: Messi 25, CM pair: Xavi 32, Iniesta 28, Busi 24
-- in 2012, our CM duo was as old as RM's in 2017, yet Messi was way younger
2013: Messi 26, Xavi 33, Iniesta 29, Busi 25
-- in 2013, our CM duo was as old as RM's current team in 2018. Messi was way younger than CR7
2014: Messi 27, Xavi 34, Iniesta 30, Busi 26
-- our team was only 1 year old than current Modric-Kroos

Even after that, Iniesta had 31, 32 and 33 years. And Messi and Busquets had 27-28-29-30 years.
CR7 and Modric won 4 CL titles with 29+29, 31+31, 32+32 and 33+33 years.

So, we always have excuses how Xavi was past his prime:
But in 2012, 2013 and 2014, Xavi-Iniesta plus Messi weren't any older than a current RM which is banging CL titles.
And later, Messi-Iniesta-Busi trio was quite playable.
Not to mention that we had Alves all the time.

So, why I am pissed of in Messi vs CR7, it seems that BOTH Real and CR7 were able to win more during their prime 5-6 years (in a Champions league).

In short:
Modric-Kroos duo isn't better than Xavi-Iniesta (and Busi).
Yet, during 5-6-7 years, Modric-Kroos managed to win more than us.
What is worse, we had a better midfielder plus GOAT Messi.
They had a weaker midfield, and a CR7, who is supposed to be less influental than Messi.
Yet, they won way more CLs.

To be honest, something is off in this story.
Either Xavi-Iniesta-Busi aren't AS good as we think.
Either Messi isn't as good as we think.
Or BOTH Messi and Xavi-Iniesta-Busi are as good as we think on a technical level, but we just collectively suck in terms of mental strength and motivation, both as a team and individuals.

Please, look at my post and those stats about age of players.
Something is just "off" in an alibi that poor Barca and poor Messi had to play with 10 monkeys while RM had a team of world class magicians.

Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Alves.
We should have won more CL imo.

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION]

Stop drooling over Ronaldo. He was pure shit for most of the season. Had couple of good games and it's all forgotten. Just imagine Messi in this RM squad. Enough said.

Champions league is bothering me.
4 CLs in 5 years.
And our 1 title in 7 years.

I can't get over it.

 

[MagIX]

Before deciding who is best, the criteria to be taken into account and in which proportion should be defined: which specifications, properties, qualities make the GOAT, make a player better than the other ?
Goals, assists, dribbling, talent, technical, spectacularity, fantasy, decisive for victory, leadership, team trophies, personal trophies, and so on and so on.... so MANY factors.
It would be interessing to open a thread about that.

One thing is certain: it's only a fashion in recent years to consider the best who scores more goals. Before, it was a non-determining factor, not so important, otherwise players like Inzaghi or Müller should be considered among the best ever.

 

[dakt]

Champions league is bothering me.
4 CLs in 5 years.
And our 1 title in 7 years.

I can't get over it.

Such is the game. Nothing can be done here and Messi is last to blame.
RM has had better players in last 4 seasons, wider bench, more options and a bit of luck. This last one is very important and I cannot understand why is so overlooked!?
You can have an ultimate squad, but when you're having an off day and you cannot score by that one shot you had, you will loose. We've seen that many times with RM, either through Ramos, Benzema, Bale or Marcelo...or even their GK.

Also, the fact still stands, we have many more domestic titles in the last 10 years and RM does not. Why? Are they so good that they don't need it? That they don't want it?
Why all of the sudden La liga titles don't matter? You can say whatever you want about CL vs La Liga, but ending up third in your domestic league is not a success.

 

[dakt]

Before deciding who is best, the criteria to be taken into account and in which proportion should be defined: which specifications, properties, qualities make the GOAT, make a player better than the other ?
Goals, assists, dribbling, talent, technical, spectacularity, fantasy, decisive for victory, leadership, team trophies, personal trophies, and so on and so on.... so MANY factors.
It would be interessing to open a thread about that.

One thing is certain: it's only a fashion in recent years to consider the best who scores more goals. Before, it was a non-determining factor, not decisive, otherwise players like Inzaghi or Müller should be considered among the best ever.

If we look numbers only, than Maradona is not the GOAT. If we worth the trophies only than what is better, to have 4-5 CL titles or one WorldCup? Then fat Ronaldo is better. The only things I look for are technical abilities and consistency. Messi doesn't lack in any of these. Everything else is a matter of luck, team you're playing in, coach you have and referees.

 

[MagIX]

[MENTION=16775]dakt[/MENTION]: I tend to agree. Also for me the talent, techinal abilities, the "magic" you see when the player touch the ball,.... these factors are for me determinant.
Number of goals..... for me is more the quality of the goals, not the numbers of goals and about that I have to laugh when CR fans, like psychos, are calculating the numbers of goals...
Trophies ? team sport
For me Maradona and Messi are by far the ABSOLUTELY BEST I have ever seen.

 

[MTL_Barca]

Real managed to build a functional team around Ronaldo. He is the target there but if he doesn't deliver they aren't dead. We just pass the ball to Messi these days.

They also focus on CL more, its not Messis fault our board (and Valverde) value CdR so high and are happy with winning la liga while exiting CL in the most embarrassing way possible. Just look how many CdR games CR and the other Real stars played these last 3 years and how much Messi played. No wonder our team is dead during April.

But is all of that Messis fault alone? Is it Ronaldo that works these things out for Real Madrid? No, and that's why this way of looking at it doesn't make much sense.

Messi playing his free role is part of our problem, but our managers and board also don't something about it. They just hope Messi carries us because he's the GOAT. During our best years Messi wasn't the only one making plays at our squad. With Xavi/Iniesta/Alves we had other stars that could build up and create chances just like Madrid does now with Marcelo/Modric/Kroos and our defense was better than now. So even if you just want to look at some players it's pretty obvious what we're lacking now and it shows in CL because it's harder to carry there than in la liga.

Winning trophies during the prime years is also not only about quality. It's also about focus (we also dominated Spain, Real only the CL) and to an extent also luck. Ramos equalizing last minute vs Atletico or other lucky (late) goals that's just football and not 100% down to who plays better and especially not who has the better star player.

People said it multiple times, where was Ronaldo vs Bayern or Liverpool? He was gone. Can you imagine Barca beating these teams with Messi having 3 bad days? That's completely out of question because our tactic is literally pass to Messi. He kinda forces that the way he plays obviously but still coaches just seem too lazy/bad to work around that a bit more.

 

[snowy]

..
Champions league is bothering me.
4 CLs in 5 years.
And our 1 title in 7 years.

I can't get over it.

ur gonna give yourself an ulcer there.

wanna win the CL? simple
Assign Pistolero a sexy aerobic instructor, sign Ziyech for MF next to Busi, for quick transition passes to the forwards, sign De Jong, De Ligt, Arthur for the future and we'll be banging CLs at will.

 

[Messi10]

this so annoying. All this Ronaldo vs Messi. Makes me sick

 

[Judoman]

this so annoying. All this Ronaldo vs Messi. Makes me sick

It also tells a story.
In the age of social media the opinion of random people has a huge value for those who are insecure in their own perception.

Following this, what also tells a story is CR s frequent self-advertising, when the GOAT/ballon d'or questions arise. I have yet to hear Messi promoting himself.

Personaly, i think he doesn t need to belive.

He knows.