10 - Lionel Messi - v5

serghei

Senior Member
It's embarrassing at this point. Just because Messi can win games alone doesn't mean he will do it every time it's needed. That is a phenomenally stupid thing to say. And you'll argue that Argentina vs Iran wasn't 99% Messi. Imo, you've lost all credibility in this discussion and i am done with it.

If he can do it, why not? What's stopping him? If he has the ability to do a thing and he doesn't do it, that can only mean two things.

a) He doesn't want to do it - existence of ability but lack of intent.
b) He doesn't have the opportunity to do it - existence of intent, but lack of opportunity.


I think we can rule out a), because I'm sure Messi would like to win every game.

If you think Messi has the ability to win a football game on his own, and he doesn't do it, then that must be because he doesn't have the opportunity to do so. So he can't create the opportunity on his own, that is given to him by his teammates. That basically proves he can't win games on his own.
 
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DonAK

President of FC Barcelona
No, it proves Messi is human and while he a lot of times has won games for Barça out of nowhere, he cannot do it all the time because.....he's human.

Even robots wouldn't be able to that. They would malfunction once or twice a year too :lol:

I guess the two goals Messi scored v Bayern were a result of him being served by others and just finishing the job. A game where he created a few chances where Suarez and Neymar couldn't put it behind the net.
 
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serghei

Senior Member
No, it proves Messi is human and while he a lot of times has won games for Barça out of nowhere, he cannot do it all the time because.....he's human.

Even robots wouldn't be able to that. They would malfunction once or twice a year too :lol:

I guess the two goals Messi scored v Bayern were a result of him being served by others and just finishing the jobm

As I said many times before, the most I would agree with, and I said it several times, is that Messi is the best and individually he influences the game more than any other single player probably ever. From this to saying he wins games on his own is a major stretch though. Maradona didn't do it, Messi doesn't do it and can't do it, and no one can. It is just how the game is built.

No, it proves Messi is human and while he a lot of times has won games for Barça out of nowhere, he cannot do it all the time because.....he's human.

Even robots wouldn't be able to that. They would malfunction once or twice a year too :lol:

I guess the two goals Messi scored v Bayern were a result of him being served by others and just finishing the job. A game where he created a few chances where Suarez and Neymar couldn't put it behind the net.

For the first goal Alves has a very important role. From a Bayern possession the ball ends up at Messi in a shooting position. And that is something Messi had almost no involvement in. It's Alves who got the ball back, dribbled a player, and played Messi in space. Of curse, a great shot from Messi made it happen, but also a great play from Alves before the shot. And also, the fact that Bayern had 0 shots on target is credit to our defence and midfield for doing an amazing job. A brilliant defensive display is not something that can be attributed to Messi primarily.
 
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FlaFCB

Guest
No, it proves Messi is human and while he a lot of times has won games for Barça out of nowhere, he cannot do it all the time because.....he's human.

Even robots wouldn't be able to that. They would malfunction once or twice a year too :lol:

I guess the two goals Messi scored v Bayern were a result of him being served by others and just finishing the job. A game where he created a few chances where Suarez and Neymar couldn't put it behind the net.

Messi is not even the only player to have done that. Many players have, for many different teams. No one has done it as much as he did, though.
 

BarcaOG

Banned
Well, let me say a few sentences about the ancient past of this game. I dare to do that simply because I used to be part of it, even if it was long time ago but I played on the international level, so also experienced the different aspects of the game and as a coach, I also felt the changes that came afterwards.

- If one could put together a selected team of the best players from the 60's or 70's, including Pele, Vava, Garrincha, Bobby Moore, the Charltons, or Albert, Beckenbauer, Müller, etc. thus the greatest of their times, and all of those players at their peak time, thus they were to play a serious game against Barca B, the "Selected Legends" team would most definitely loose by at least 3-5 goals.
I do hope everyone knows the reason, the game is much faster, players are stronger physically, moving almost twice as much as we did, etc.
But this doesn't mean those geniuses were less talented or inferior compared to your present favorites, the game was different, it changed, evolved, as everything else did in our world.

- In my own peak time (and sorry for giving myself as an example, but it's just easier), today you would say I was an attacking midfielder, but we were attacking by 4 or 5 players, so everything was quite different back then.
I was known about being quite fast but more importantly being able to pass or cross the ball with both feet, by 50-60 meters with quite good accuracy. These were my own good qualities but there were bad ones too: Physically I was not strong enough, I was awful with headers and jumping in the air or avoiding sliding feet, I was a good dribbler but couldn't withstand or avoid backhanded fouls.
Thus I was technically above the average of my team(s) but athletically below average.
I was usually successful against defenders or midfielders who were slower than me but often failed if they were fast or did not give me enough space for those long launches.

10-15 years earlier there was an outstanding footballer playing in the same club, he was a very widely honored international, who played 60-70 times in my NT. Later, he was also my coach for some time, his name was János Göröcs but everyone called him "Titi".
His technique was exceptional, and we'd often made bets if he was able to heel a coin into his pocket. He could do that 98% of times - when he was in good mood to demonstrate, that is.
Never even seen live a player (or even an acrobat in the circus) who could do that with that ease and accuracy. It was unbelievable... Puskas's skills were nowhere compared to his, though Puskas was much stronger.
Göröcs was an important player for the NT but never made a meaningful international carrier. The sole reason for that was his physical weakness and later tendencies for injuries. He was the player I had learnt the most from, specially those long launches and many other things. He is 79 and fortunately in good health...

- Why am I telling you all this? Because I simply want to show you a comparison. It will be Messi and myself - hope you don't mind it...
I got a ball in the centre circle and immediately tried to launch a forward, or there was an opponent and I had to do the same after a dribble. I was quite successful in those but - and this is the essence of my redundant thoughts - I did not launch the ball unless the defender was just 1-2 meters from me or I couldn't get behind him to take the long pass clearly.

- Now look at what Messi does. He gets the ball, dribbles if needed but after that he does the same 50-60 meters launch when his left foot is still 10 centimeters from the defender's foot.
This is the difference and it is a tremendous one, because I wouldn't have been able to do it successfully, Göröcs couldn't have done it and neither 99% of others.
We simply needed more space back then, perhaps more time as well, but even more importantly we perhaps could do the launch when the defender was very close by, but definitely not with the needed accuracy.
Messi does it when 10 cms from the guy, who is crabbing his shirt, trying to kick him, but this guy can still accurately do the long pass most of the time. This is such a difference that tells a lot about how different this game has become and how good Messi is.

Hope you didn't mind the redundant historical tale...

Not redundant at all! Thank you for taking the time to write your thoughts. And thank you for joining our community! You add something none of us ever could. :cheers:
 
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FlaFCB

Guest

Chong Li

New member
It could all still be a ploy by the board to make Barto look like the knight in shining armour, saving the club all by himself and renewing Messi.

But with these idiots in charge anything seems possible.
 

Sterlingfan2000

Active member
Im concerned about this chinese money, they already offered ronaldo 110€ Mil yearly wages and 300€ buyout fee to real madrid. I think they are gonna try it on messi also
 

khorne

New member
my 2 cents:
if whatshisface really was fired/demoted/punished because of those exact words, then this is worrisome. As long as his opinion is based on a certain objectivenes and whichever criticism he offers is purely fact related and not ad hominem, having a person who is commited enough to speak his mind even if he knows the vast majority will think differently or even antagonize him for it, is incredibly valuable, not only for barca, but for any institution really. To punish this guy for what basically amounts to "commiting blasphemy" is really something i would have expected somewhere around the vicinity of ronaldo, not us.

And on the debate of what the guy said: For me there is a clear distinction between talent/skill/magic and playing level. The former is attached to the individual player and apart from the improvements he makes for himself by training, learning, etc basically constant (although it would make for an interesting debate whether it makes a difference for messi if he plays and trains for 10 years with an iniesta or let's say a hleb. geniuses tend to inspire each other after all). In the case of messi, his talent is of course ridiculously high.

Playing level however is something else, for me that's actual goals scored, assists given, dribbles made and all the other stuff found in the castrol index, performance under stress, clutch moments, impacts on a match etc. in short how "good" a player has been during a game, a season or competition or his career. And if the barca guy had this in mind when he said messi wouldn't be as good, then that is objectively true and not insulting at all. Of course his overall performance will be better when he plays at barca with xavi and iniesta than when he plays at stoke. in fact, saying the opposite, that with messi the result is the same, regardless if you put xavi or iniesta beside him or johnny slowfeet, would be disrespectful to xavi and iniesta. of course they make him play better.

Some people make it sound as if messi's level of play is like a natural constant. if that were the case, he'd be world champion right now, sorry for the polemics.
 

Horatio

You're welcome
^
I agree, he shouldn't have been fired solely for his comments. And honestly, I don't think that's the only cause. They probably wanted him out already. Or even better: he got loose with his comments BECAUSE he knew would get kicked out soon anyway. That would make more sense to me.
 

Aryagorn

Improvin' Perfection!!
Stupid decision to fire the guy..... If anyone needs to be shown the door, it's that common sense fcuktard who's none of it!
 

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