10 - Lionel Messi - v5

Mitchell1978

Senior Member
The big problem for Messi with Argentina is, he either has to win games on his own like he did against Ecuador or he's vilified in the press and in Argentina.
Even moreso now with Argentina declining.

Thats not a healthy, workable situation.
Argentina don't deserve him, wether he retires or not, i hope he focusses solely on Barcelona next season.
 

Mitchell1978

Senior Member
In modern era CL all that matters sadly and you can't win that without a midfield and a misfiring striker (Suarez).

Nobody outside of Spain cares about Copa Del Ray unless it's part of a treble including CL. Even Real get themselves knocked out early.

La Liga immediately gets overrided if your rivals win the CL.

I don't give a shit with what bandwagon fans think, a domestic double is always a good season and barça did that 3 times in the last 4 years.
Iff all you care about is the CL then go support another team.
 

Mitchell1978

Senior Member
I think the cumulative awful luck he's had since 2015 combined with everything going for Ronaldo has finally took it out of him. CL final probably the final straw. Rather than firing him up the Ronado hat-trick the day before Iceland only added to the fatalism that the gods are with Ronaldo and added to the unreal pressure on him.

Losing 6-1 to Spain (Messi leaving the stands before the end) was also significant as he realised that night they had no chance.

Pretty shure, and thats what he has always said in interviews, all he cares about is winning something with the NT not a stupid rivalry made up by the press.
And its clear Argentina has to inept off a squad and coach to be able to win.
 

Neeraj

Senior Member
But Messi has never seemed to care about his comparison with the diva. Time and time again he has given away penalties, let others score tap ins, etc. He switches off after securing the game often, unlike Ronaldo who's always desperate to be compared to the GOAT.

So I don't see why Ronaldo's hat trick should have any bearing on him walking out like a zombie onto the pitch. It's very possible Messi has simpler problems like a chronic migraine, or anything like that. Things which you can't come out and complain about, but things which do affect you. I'm just wildly guessing here, but my point is I think there's something mentally / physically wrong with him. At least that's what it seems like.
 

Ritchie

New member
But Messi has never seemed to care about his comparison with the diva. Time and time again he has given away penalties, let others score tap ins, etc. He switches off after securing the game often, unlike Ronaldo who's always desperate to be compared to the GOAT.

So I don't see why Ronaldo's hat trick should have any bearing on him walking out like a zombie onto the pitch. It's very possible Messi has simpler problems like a chronic migraine, or anything like that. Things which you can't come out and complain about, but things which do affect you. I'm just wildly guessing here, but my point is I think there's something mentally / physically wrong with him. At least that's what it seems like.

He's got it in his head this is his last chance with Argentina and at a World Cup and the pressure has got to him combined with the frustration of knowing the team is awful.

If he had Coutinho and Neymar on the team (let alone Xavi and Iniesta) he'd be different.

He's been carrying mediocrity for club and country for years now (particularly with coaches) but he's been left with nothing when at least with Barca he's had Iniesta still or Neymar and Suarez. The Lanzini injury was another final straw as that was the player he'd earmarked to link with.
 
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Richard.H

Senior Member
In a parallel universe, Messi is playing for Spain and he has won 2010, 2014, and so far has 6 goals in the 2018 group stage
 

serghei

Senior Member
In a parallel universe, Messi is playing for Spain and he has won 2010, 2014, and so far has 6 goals in the 2018 group stage

And this would prove what, that he can only win great titles with a stellar team?

But Messi has never seemed to care about his comparison with the diva. Time and time again he has given away penalties, let others score tap ins, etc. He switches off after securing the game often, unlike Ronaldo who's always desperate to be compared to the GOAT.

So I don't see why Ronaldo's hat trick should have any bearing on him walking out like a zombie onto the pitch. It's very possible Messi has simpler problems like a chronic migraine, or anything like that. Things which you can't come out and complain about, but things which do affect you. I'm just wildly guessing here, but my point is I think there's something mentally / physically wrong with him. At least that's what it seems like.

It's fine not to care about the duel with Ronaldo when taken into silly discussions. It's totally not fine not to care that Ronaldo is beasting it in CL and now in the World Cup while he's been average or plain bad in most big games in the last 2-3 years. Basically since 2015.

This teammates excuse is silly. It can be used to absolve Messi of any guilt, sure. But you can also use it to say that Messi only won big titles when he had the greatest midfielders behind him, or the greatest attacking trio ever. So, it works both ways.
 
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Neeraj

Senior Member
And this would prove what, that he can only win great titles with a stellar team?

Not true though. Even if was carried to those tournaments (which most definitely won't be the case) he would be lauded as undisputed GOAT. All the criticism he gets now would have vanished. The masses are stupid and fickle. They devour what the media has to say. Even if Messi puts on a real show at this WC(which he sure as hell isn't doing right now), and they go out early, he'd still be vilified.

Of course, as I mentioned earlier, that's not an excuse for the disgraceful walking show he's putting on now, but yeah.
 
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serghei

Senior Member
Like Pelé, Xavi, Iniesta, Zidane, Beckenbauer and many other atg legends?

You don't see people holding that against them to dimiss their achivements.

Messi is an atg already, top 3 probably. Not sure winning the World Cup with Spain would change that much in how serious fans rate Messi. Plus, it would be a bad sign to not play for your country and join Spain to win titles on the back of them having a better team. You don't play for the country that has the most chances to win. Not what NT football is about.
 

Mitchell1978

Senior Member
Messi is an atg already, top 3 probably. Not sure winning the World Cup with Spain would change that much in how serious fans rate Messi. Plus, it would be a bad sign to not play for your country and join Spain to win titles on the back of them having a better team. You don't play for the country that has the most chances to win. Not what NT football is about.

Had he choses Spain it would have happened around 2005/06 before Spain won anything so it wouldn't be choosing the greatest NT you can.
But that ship has sailed long ago and Messi has dismissed the idea in interviews.

At the same time its stupid to say you have to win a World Cup or else your time with the NT is a failure but that is what Argentina and a lot of the press are saying.
He should play better then he's playing right now but imo he's in a no-win-situation with Argentina.
 

henias

New member
Watching the Ecuador performance, there's really some drastic change in his behaviour and energy levels. It is also a possibility his having a massive migraine during the Croatia match by the way he rubbed his forehead during the anthem. He seemed completely off. If you are talking about pressure, the Ecuador match would actually be a very high pressure game as well, but Leo on that day seemed completely focused and when he scored the first goal he was determined to get another and another, which went on to be one of the happiest day of his career. However, alot can change in 8 months, including his, physical conditions, form, external determinants such as media, expectations etc.

I don't condone the walking, I think that sort of becomes a habit for him. But clearly he was affected by the penalty miss and blames himself for that. Willy Wonka's mistake further adds more pressure which he is already having due to his blunder in the first match.

But most fundementally, Sampaoli still needs to change his tactical approach, I think it is IMMENSELY difficult for Messi alone get past defenders, let alone teams who willingly sit deep with a medium or low block. It is a near impossible task, I think facing such situations, most players will already feel half defeated. Furthermore, the GK literally gifted Croatia with a goal when the players are all working so hard upfront trying to break down the defence. Against Ecuador, Messi was able to work with alot of space, as they didnt emphasise on possession and allow Messi in more advanced positions.
 

El Flaco

Active member
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serghei

Senior Member
Everything Simeone says here is true.

Had he choses Spain it would have happened around 2005/06 before Spain won anything so it wouldn't be choosing the greatest NT you can.
But that ship has sailed long ago and Messi has dismissed the idea in interviews.

At the same time its stupid to say you have to win a World Cup or else your time with the NT is a failure but that is what Argentina and a lot of the press are saying.
He should play better then he's playing right now but imo he's in a no-win-situation with Argentina.

True. Goat debates are fun, but stupid after all.

I don't think Messi has been a failure for Argentina so far in his career. He will have a very poor World Cup if they don't make it past the groups, which would be shameful for Argentina. But I do think Ronaldo is better than Messi in recent years when it comes to performances in important games. Which is what most objective fans would I agree on I think.
 
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