10 - Lionel Messi - V6

[Arizona Scott]

So, we played eleven games since the start of the year, and thats in a month and 6 day span a game every 3 days. Our record is
6 wins, 3 draws and 2 losses.
I've made a math of the minutes our 'top' 6 players over the age 30 collected in this period, and its stupid:

Suarez - cca 775 mins(8 full games, 2 games as a sub, never substitued- 70 mins per game)
Messi - cca 685 mins(7 full games, 2 games as a sub, never substitued - more then 60 mins per game)
Rakitic - cca 796 mins(7 full games, 1 game as a sub, 2 times substituted at 63' and 76' min - more then 70 mins per game)
Pique - cca 810 mins(9 full games, 0 as a sub, 0 substituted - more then 70 minutes per game)
Alba - cca 668 mins(6 full games, 2 games as a sub, substituted once at 73'- 60 mins per game)
Busi - cca 618 mins(5 full games, 1 game as a sub, 2 games substituted at 66' and 82' - a little less then 60 mins per game)

When you put it like this, considering that messi was injured a bit, its clearly that ev is a fucking idiot and is running our seniors to the ground. Every last one of them had more than an hour of play time every 3 days in a month. How you're gonna refresh them ev, you clueless cunt?

Well put. I think Arthur before his injury was top 4 as well, maybe even so with that missed match. I think Vidal has also played too much for his age. Busi and Messi I am not as worried as the rest because they can play very well picking their spots and being efficient. We have to work in the non regulars--Malcom, Alena, Murillo, Vermaelen, maybe even Oriel or Samper. Umititi would be ideal because we can spell Pique and Lenglet without losing anything.

 

[Giginho75]

The best players play very often (almost always) in the season in all the top teams.
We can see the top players of RM, CR7 with Juventus, the trident Ney-Mbap-Cav with PSG, Lewa with Bayern, the top players of the english top teams.

Clearly it's the same also for us...
For example, probably the stats of Ramos, Modric and Kroos are the same of Pique', Busq and Leo.

 

[Arizona Scott]

The best players play very often (almost always) in the season in all the top teams.
We can see the top players of RM, CR7 with Juventus, the trident Ney-Mbap-Cav with PSG, Lewa with Bayern, the top players of the english top teams.

Clearly it's the same also for us...
For example, probably the stats of Ramos, Modric and Kroos are the same of Pique', Busq and Leo.

Maybe someone could do the analyses but I suspect the last 4 years Modric, Kroos, Benzema & Ronaldo have not had the cumulative minutes of Messi, Suarez, Busi & Rakitic by say March 1st.

Not really comparable in Germany with 34 league games plus Bayern is usually cruising without much pressure in the league, also PSG and Juve more often that not have not had much league pressure either. City also surely rotates a lot..

 

[Giginho75]

Maybe someone could do the analyses but I suspect the last 4 years Modric, Kroos, Benzema & Ronaldo have not had the cumulative minutes of Messi, Suarez, Busi & Rakitic by say March 1st.

I don't think, The blancos played a lot...
maybe only Benzema sometimes on the bench.

Not really comparable in Germany with 34 league games plus Bayern is usually cruising without much pressure in the league, also PSG and Juve more often that not have not had much league pressure either. City also surely rotates a lot..

The point is not the pressure, but if the best players of the top level teams sometime rest or start from the bench.

Anyway, it seems you want finding always something of not positive in FCB.

 

[MTL_Barca]

I think there was a comparison some time ago between RM and Barca players where our stars had like twice the minutes, but that was only Copa.

Teams usually don't rest their starters every other week in league games, it's mostly cup games, CL group stage (vs weak opponent/when already qualified) and ahead of important (international) games.

If we talk about resting Messi/Suarez more that comes down to only a hand full of games a season more, they would always play most games anyway.

 

[Messi983]

So, we played eleven games since the start of the year, and thats in a month and 6 day span a game every 3 days. Our record is
6 wins, 3 draws and 2 losses.
I've made a math of the minutes our 'top' 6 players over the age 30 collected in this period, and its stupid:

Suarez - cca 775 mins(8 full games, 2 games as a sub, never substitued- 70 mins per game)
Messi - cca 685 mins(7 full games, 2 games as a sub, never substitued - more then 60 mins per game)
Rakitic - cca 796 mins(7 full games, 1 game as a sub, 2 times substituted at 63' and 76' min - more then 70 mins per game)
Pique - cca 810 mins(9 full games, 0 as a sub, 0 substituted - more then 70 minutes per game)
Alba - cca 668 mins(6 full games, 2 games as a sub, substituted once at 73'- 60 mins per game)
Busi - cca 618 mins(5 full games, 1 game as a sub, 2 games substituted at 66' and 82' - a little less then 60 mins per game)

When you put it like this, considering that messi was injured a bit, its clearly that ev is a fucking idiot and is running our seniors to the ground. Every last one of them had more than an hour of play time every 3 days in a month. How you're gonna refresh them ev, you clueless cunt?

Lol, they are our key players, what did you expect them to play? 40 minutes/game?


Anyway, I prefer to calculate % of possible minutes played. Assuming your calculated minutes for this season are correct (I'm too lazy to check) we have this:

Suarez 78%
Messi 69%
Raki 80%
Pique 82%
Alba 67%
Busi 62%

I would say in most top teams key players (when healthy) are getting at least 70-80% of minutes every season so this is nothing out of ordinary.


For comparision - minutes played in 2018 until 13th February

Suarez 931 miinutes out of possible 1080 (86%)
Messi 990/1080 (92%)
Raki 843/1080 (78%)
Pique 848/1080 (79%)
Alba 773/1080 (72%)
Busi 883/1080 (82%)


So Messi and Busi have played a lot less. Suarez's usage has dropped as well while Alba is playing a bit more (understandable since he doesn't have a clear backup) but he was still rested a few times. Raki and Pique are at about the same level than last year.


And here are total minutes played so far in 2018/19 compared to last season:

Pique is the only one obviously overplayed.

Messi has played 700 minutes less than at the same time last year and he also didn't play 4-5 games for NT and travel twice to South America like he did in September and October 2017. There is absolutely no excuse for him to not show up in CL games because he's "tired".

 

[Vilarrubi]

Lol, they are our key players, what did you expect them to play? 40 minutes/game?


Anyway, I prefer to calculate % of possible minutes played. Assuming your calculated minutes for this season are correct (I'm too lazy to check) we have this:

Suarez 78%
Messi 69%
Raki 80%
Pique 82%
Alba 67%
Busi 62%

I would say in most top teams key players (when healthy) are getting at least 70-80% of minutes every season so this is nothing out of ordinary.


For comparision - minutes played in 2018 until 13th February

Suarez 931 miinutes out of possible 1080 (86%)
Messi 990/1080 (92%)
Raki 843/1080 (78%)
Pique 848/1080 (79%)
Alba 773/1080 (72%)
Busi 883/1080 (82%)


So Messi and Busi have played a lot less. Suarez's usage has dropped as well while Alba is playing a bit more (understandable since he doesn't have a clear backup) but he was still rested a few times. Raki and Pique are at about the same level than last year.


And here are total minutes played so far in 2018/19 compared to last season:

Pique is the only one obviously overplayed.

Messi has played 700 minutes less than at the same time last year and he also didn't play 4-5 games for NT and travel twice to South America like he did in September and October 2017. There is absolutely no excuse for him to not show up in CL games because he's "tired".

I still don't fully buy the "players were tired" excuse from last season against Roma. Valverde had no game plan whatsoever other than "a more defensive 4-4-2 which means more players in midfield therefore surely Roma won't score 3"... what was more worrying was that he didn't have a Plan B either, we looked the same for the full 90 minutes other than maybe the last 5 mins.

If we look clueless again in the CL this season it's down to Valverde, with the talent we have in our squad we should be going for the title 100%.. you just know that someone like Pep would have these players playing at another level.

We also have Coutinho, Dembele and Arthur this season.

We're going to have a lot of answers after the Lyon game.

 

[Messi983]

I still don't fully buy the "players were tired" excuse from last season against Roma. Valverde had no game plan whatsoever other than "a more defensive 4-4-2 which means more players in midfield therefore surely Roma won't score 3"... what was more worrying was that he didn't have a Plan B either, we looked the same for the full 90 minutes other than maybe the last 5 mins.

If we look clueless again in the CL this season it's down to Valverde, with the talent we have in our squad we should be going for the title 100%.. you just know that someone like Pep would have these players playing at another level.

We also have Coutinho, Dembele and Arthur this season.

We're going to have a lot of answers after the Lyon game.

Of course EV will have to take his part of the blame but I think our recent CL struggles are as much on the players as coaches.


2011-12 SF: Chelsea (1-0)
2012-13 SF: Bayern (4-0)
2013-14 QF: Atletico (1-0)

2015-16 QF: Atletico (2-0)
2016-17 QF: Juve (3-0)
2017-18 QF: Roma (3-0)

Excluding the treable season we have failed to score in away QF/SF games when we were eliminated in 6 of the last 7 seasons. Under 5 different coaches.

I think problems are bigger than just "EV sucks, replace him and we'll suddenly win again".

 

[henias]

Of course EV will have to take his part of the blame but I think our recent CL struggles are as much on the players as coaches.


2011-12 SF: Chelsea (1-0)
2012-13 SF: Bayern (4-0)
2013-14 QF: Atletico (1-0)

2015-16 QF: Atletico (2-0)
2016-17 QF: Juve (3-0)
2017-18 QF: Roma (3-0)

Excluding the treable season we have failed to score in away QF/SF games when we were eliminated in 6 of the last 7 seasons. Under 5 different coaches.

I think problems are bigger than just "EV sucks, replace him and we'll suddenly win again".

Except most were mediocre coaches called upon by Rosell and Bartomeu.

Rotation was big problems, lack of squad depth, coaches were replaced with mediocrity. You said yourself problems were bigger, but coaches were part of the problem.

Having them will make things worse and not better. Even Lucho brought in something positive out of nothing although he faltered and was barren of fresh tactics and ideas. Valverde shouldn't be excused with such a squad at his disposal. What's the point of bringing in a coach who couldn't make the situation better and is clearly out of his depth.

Just because there is other problems doesnt mean coaches can be swept under the carpet.

EV can be replaced anytime. You want to replace Messi? Go ahead. And we'll see how this Barcelona holds, especially with this moron of a coach.

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

Of course EV will have to take his part of the blame but I think our recent CL struggles are as much on the players as coaches.


2011-12 SF: Chelsea (1-0)
2012-13 SF: Bayern (4-0)
2013-14 QF: Atletico (1-0)

2015-16 QF: Atletico (2-0)
2016-17 QF: Juve (3-0)
2017-18 QF: Roma (3-0)

Excluding the treable season we have failed to score in away QF/SF games when we were eliminated in 6 of the last 7 seasons. Under 5 different coaches.

I think problems are bigger than just "EV sucks, replace him and we'll suddenly win again".

Wow I didn't realize we had that bad results. Damn we suck in away games.

Just shows how crucial it's to score away goal.

Btw you could add PSG vs Barca 4-0. That was another nightmare.

 

[Kul_z]

Lol, they are our key players, what did you expect them to play? 40 minutes/game?


Anyway, I prefer to calculate % of possible minutes played. Assuming your calculated minutes for this season are correct (I'm too lazy to check) we have this:

Suarez 78%
Messi 69%
Raki 80%
Pique 82%
Alba 67%
Busi 62%

I would say in most top teams key players (when healthy) are getting at least 70-80% of minutes every season so this is nothing out of ordinary.


For comparision - minutes played in 2018 until 13th February

Suarez 931 miinutes out of possible 1080 (86%)
Messi 990/1080 (92%)
Raki 843/1080 (78%)
Pique 848/1080 (79%)
Alba 773/1080 (72%)
Busi 883/1080 (82%)


So Messi and Busi have played a lot less. Suarez's usage has dropped as well while Alba is playing a bit more (understandable since he doesn't have a clear backup) but he was still rested a few times. Raki and Pique are at about the same level than last year.


And here are total minutes played so far in 2018/19 compared to last season:

Pique is the only one obviously overplayed.

Messi has played 700 minutes less than at the same time last year and he also didn't play 4-5 games for NT and travel twice to South America like he did in September and October 2017. There is absolutely no excuse for him to not show up in CL games because he's "tired".

No, that was not my point. My point is that all those players are in their 30's, that in those eleven games we played 5 copa matches(levante), 6 la liga and we played against likes of getafe, eibar, leganes and girona. If those clubs are not proper opponents to rest our seniors then i dont know against who we're gonna rest them. Messi have less minutes because of the injury in october. Or better, during the season that started in august(and a world cup year) they have somewhere around 2500 minutes, and only in january some of them have cca 800 minutes. Isn't that above average? Yes it is. As far as i know, right know we're entering in the most important period of the season, isn't logical to rest them so they can enter that period on 100%? I think it is. Are we repeating the same mistakes we did 3 seasons in a row? Yes we are. Tired is not the termin i want to use, its more like they need to regain their hunger to play football, ive seen it so many times before. We go out of cl and then they start to play like they want to prove that they know how to play, that ko was a coincidence.

 

[Arizona Scott]

I just looked at some data. Freaken stark contrasts:

La Liga minutes:
17-18, Messi 2997, Suarez 2902, Rakitic 2839, Busi 2600.
16-17 Messi 2833, Suarez 2865, Rakitic 2345, Busi 2693.

17-18, Modric 1976, Kroos 2268, CR 2293
16-17 Modric 1892, Kroos 2501, CR 2544

Not I did not break out minutes pre/post march. I did not factor CdR where Barca played the most.

Is it that surprising which team might peak early and fatigue, and which team can maintain late season form? I personally have little doubt Barca has played the highest level football by any club most of the last 5 years (and it is usually born out in league standings in the hardest league to win), problem from the CL perspective though is that has been October-January. Rotation-rotation-rotation (if all u care about is to peak form March-June)

 

[Kul_z]

I just looked at some data. Freaken stark contrasts:

La Liga minutes:
17-18, Messi 2997, Suarez 2902, Rakitic 2839, Busi 2600.
16-17 Messi 2833, Suarez 2865, Rakitic 2345, Busi 2693.

17-18, Modric 1976, Kroos 2268, CR 2293
16-17 Modric 1892, Kroos 2501, CR 2544

Not I did not break out minutes pre/post march. I did not factor CdR where Barca played the most.

Is it that surprising which team might peak early and fatigue, and which team can maintain late season form? I personally have little doubt Barca has played the highest level football by any club most of the last 5 years (and it is usually born out in league standings in the hardest league to win), problem from the CL perspective though is that has been October-January. Rotation-rotation-rotation (if all u care about is to peak form March-June)

And some people here would say that this isnt a problem. Its clear as day. Madrid's best players rest during the season for the last 4 months, while we rest messi at the final month of the season when everything is decided, when we're out of cl, in the final of copa and league secured.

 

[Vilarrubi]

I just looked at some data. Freaken stark contrasts:

La Liga minutes:
17-18, Messi 2997, Suarez 2902, Rakitic 2839, Busi 2600.
16-17 Messi 2833, Suarez 2865, Rakitic 2345, Busi 2693.

17-18, Modric 1976, Kroos 2268, CR 2293
16-17 Modric 1892, Kroos 2501, CR 2544

Not I did not break out minutes pre/post march. I did not factor CdR where Barca played the most.

Is it that surprising which team might peak early and fatigue, and which team can maintain late season form? I personally have little doubt Barca has played the highest level football by any club most of the last 5 years (and it is usually born out in league standings in the hardest league to win), problem from the CL perspective though is that has been October-January. Rotation-rotation-rotation (if all u care about is to peak form March-June)

The players are down in minutes this season, no point looking back at previous seasons. We should be better prepared now plus we have Dembele, Coutinho, Arthur to add to that. If we go out in similar fashion it must be on the manager and tactics rather than fatigue.

 

[henias]

And some people here would say that this isnt a problem. Its clear as day. Madrid's best players rest during the season for the last 4 months, while we rest messi at the final month of the season when everything is decided, when we're out of cl, in the final of copa and league secured.

Exactly, rotations has always been a huge isssue and even the managers never learnt their lessons, especially someone as obstinate like EV. It's stupidly obvious the late season's planning is always all messed up, when we need to compete on all fronts. How is this an excuse to say players were not putting in their effort when they all looked worst late season. Everytime after we got knocked out of CL, somehow the players look fresh again. It's no coincidence.

EV "resting" more players this season was because of the surge in injuries this season, especially the likes of Messi, Dembele, Umtiti, Suarez. And we have a better squad depth this season. But he wouldn't hesitate to use Messi as an emergency backup even when he is resting for his injury. Malcom constantly sidelined made no sense. And the overplaying of Rakitic and Busi are as senseless as well.