10 - Lionel Messi - V6

[Messi983]

No, that was not my point. My point is that all those players are in their 30's, that in those eleven games we played 5 copa matches(levante), 6 la liga and we played against likes of getafe, eibar, leganes and girona. If those clubs are not proper opponents to rest our seniors then i dont know against who we're gonna rest them. Messi have less minutes because of the injury in october. Or better, during the season that started in august(and a world cup year) they have somewhere around 2500 minutes, and only in january some of them have cca 800 minutes. Isn't that above average? Yes it is. As far as i know, right know we're entering in the most important period of the season, isn't logical to rest them so they can enter that period on 100%? I think it is. Are we repeating the same mistakes we did 3 seasons in a row? Yes we are. Tired is not the termin i want to use, its more like they need to regain their hunger to play football, ive seen it so many times before. We go out of cl and then they start to play like they want to prove that they know how to play, that ko was a coincidence.

So you admit there are other problems than just tiredness? You mentioned hunger but maybe it's just players failling under pressure in the CL? Yes, I know most of our (current and past) players have won everything but how else would you explain they are suddenly playing more relaxed when they are out of the CL as you said.

Can we really say all those (mostly mental) problems would go away if they would play less in January/February? As evident from my previous post most players especially Messi and Busi have played a lot less this season so we'll see if they'll perform better in the CL. If they won't then people will maybe finally stop blaming CDR for not winning the CL. Obviously EV will be the main culprit in most people minds followed by the usual suspects like Raki, Pique, Suarez and Roberto (if he'll play) while people will (again) look for excuses for Messi.

What I want to see against Lyon (and in further CL matches if we advance which I believe we will) is Messi running 8-9 kms and not walking 5-6 km like he usually does. And him scoring some goals/give assists in away games. If he does all of that and we still fail then we can talk about EV/team letting him down. If he doesn't then he's as much to blame as other players/EV. You need a team effort to win the CL but if Messi wants to be considered GOAT he should do more in those away QF/SF games than he did in 6 of the last 7 years.

Anyway about games you mentioned:
- Getafe away: tough game after two week break. No need to rotate in a game like this. We played with starters though Busi only came on for the last 20 minutes because he had some discomforts before the game
- Levante away (Copa): a lot of rotations, only Busi and Dembele were playing from starters. Coutinho as well if you consider him as a starter.
- Eibar home: some rest for Dembele otherwise we played a strong lineup; maybe there should be a bit more rotations here but starters were already rested in Levante game and you can't really expect players like Messi, Busi&Co. not to start in two consecutive games when healthy.
- Levante home (Copa): remontada part 1, good lineup though Busi and Pique stayed on the bench while Suarez played last 30 minutes
- Leganes home: Lenglet out of match squad; Messi and Raki subbed on for the last 25 minutes with a 1-1 scoreline
- Sevilla away (Copa): again a lot of rotations. Dembele (injured), Messi and Busi were watching a game from home, Alba and Semedo both played 45 minutes, Suarez on for the last 25 minutes.
- Girona away: almost a "gala XI" again though some rest for Arthur and Coutinho starting with Dembele out injured. Probably the only game I would say maybe we could rotate more (Murillo instead of Pique, Alena for Raki)
- Sevilla home (Copa): "gala XI" (except Cou for Dembele) for remontada part 2; obviously for people not caring about Copa we should again play with more rotations and go out but I really enjoyed that game so wouldn't change anything
- Valencia home: rest for Lenglet, Alba only played 45 minutes and Arthur the last 25
- Real Madrid home (Copa): Messi subbed on in 2nd half, Raki off at the same time
- Athletic Bilbao away: San Mames is not really a place to make rotations (especially not with a week without a game ahead) so strongest possible lineup but Alba (suspension) and Arthur (injured) didn't play.

So while Valverde (except Levante away game) didn't do some crazy rotations ala Lucho (starting 7 or 8 bench players and lose at home against Alaves) he still managed minutes well I think.

I just looked at some data. Freaken stark contrasts:

La Liga minutes:
17-18, Messi 2997, Suarez 2902, Rakitic 2839, Busi 2600.
16-17 Messi 2833, Suarez 2865, Rakitic 2345, Busi 2693.

17-18, Modric 1976, Kroos 2268, CR 2293
16-17 Modric 1892, Kroos 2501, CR 2544

Not I did not break out minutes pre/post march. I did not factor CdR where Barca played the most.

Is it that surprising which team might peak early and fatigue, and which team can maintain late season form? I personally have little doubt Barca has played the highest level football by any club most of the last 5 years (and it is usually born out in league standings in the hardest league to win), problem from the CL perspective though is that has been October-January. Rotation-rotation-rotation (if all u care about is to peak form March-June)

In 2016/17 RM had amazing bench with players like Morata and James winning them La Liga so CR and Modrić could be rested for the CL. After those players were sold they couldn't continue to play in two competitions last year. They gave up on La Liga before New Year so it's understandable they've rested players for the CL. I think they will also have some problems playing in three competitions this year.

And some people here would say that this isnt a problem. Its clear as day. Madrid's best players rest during the season for the last 4 months, while we rest messi at the final month of the season when everything is decided, when we're out of cl, in the final of copa and league secured.

As said above, except 2016/17 season they are usually out of serious La Liga title chances before knockout rounds of CL so it's obvious they concentrate on their only realistic chance to win something.

I know people blame CDR but Madrid usually also throw away La Liga early and concentrate on CL. How would you feel if we would be 10-15 points behind RM at this point? Yes, we could concentrate on the CL but nobody would actually believe we could win it, EV would be gone and everyone except Messi should be sold.

CL might be more glorified and a bigger desire for fans (especialy after RM's recent success) but I always give preference to La Liga. Whenever we win La Liga, I'm happy with our season. Not doing well in La Liga would bring unrest to the team and fans so we can't afford to just throw it away early in the season. And while our depth has improved we still don't have enough to win La Liga with bench players so starters must play more.

 

[DonAK]

Bartomeu saying he'll renew Messi's contract before his term ends in 2021. That's all fine, but given Messi's age then and the state of the team, I believe Messi should take a significant paycut. He has enough money as it is and if he want to retire at Barca and still be competitive, and leave Barca in a good place, he should realize that the club cannot afford to pay him the salary they're paying him right now.

A pay rise is out of question and so is staying at the same level.

The club is paying him 106m euros every year(gross salary ofc). He need to go down to a way more reasonable figure around 60m or so. And even then you could argue it's a bit too much.

 

[Messigician]

Bartomeu saying he'll renew Messi's contract before his term ends in 2021. That's all fine, but given Messi's age then and the state of the team, I believe Messi should take a significant paycut. He has enough money as it is and if he want to retire at Barca and still be competitive, and leave Barca in a good place, he should realize that the club cannot afford to pay him the salary they're paying him right now.

A pay rise is out of question and so is staying at the same level.

The club is paying him 106m euros every year(gross salary ofc). He need to go down to a way more reasonable figure around 60m or so. And even then you could argue it's a bit too much.

Nope, he could have gone to PSG or City but chose to stay at Barca out of loyalty. He deaerves to be be well compensated, last time we tried this shit with Alves he left and he had the last laugh and knocked us out of UCL

 

[Pedro]

Bartomeu saying he'll renew Messi's contract before his term ends in 2021. That's all fine, but given Messi's age then and the state of the team, I believe Messi should take a significant paycut. He has enough money as it is and if he want to retire at Barca and still be competitive, and leave Barca in a good place, he should realize that the club cannot afford to pay him the salary they're paying him right now.

A pay rise is out of question and so is staying at the same level.

The club is paying him 106m euros every year(gross salary ofc). He need to go down to a way more reasonable figure around 60m or so. And even then you could argue it's a bit too much.

Good thing you're not actually the President of FC Barcelona, Leo doesn't deserve a lower wage.

 

[tacticvarium]

Should perform much better in the CL then if Messi wants to renew his contract again

 

[Givenchy]

Bartomeu saying he'll renew Messi's contract before his term ends in 2021. That's all fine, but given Messi's age then and the state of the team, I believe Messi should take a significant paycut. He has enough money as it is and if he want to retire at Barca and still be competitive, and leave Barca in a good place, he should realize that the club cannot afford to pay him the salary they're paying him right now.

A pay rise is out of question and so is staying at the same level.

The club is paying him 106m euros every year(gross salary ofc). He need to go down to a way more reasonable figure around 60m or so. And even then you could argue it's a bit too much.

I'd agree for 99.9% of players but Leo is a special case id make the exception. sure his wages are insane and yes hes getting older but just for the pure joy he brings i'd say hes worth it, theres no player like him and there never will be again. I'm a Barca fan first and foremost but Messi keeps me watching even under this dull manager

 

[DonAK]

I'd agree for 99.9% of players but Leo is a special case id make the exception. sure his wages are insane and yes hes getting older but just for the pure joy he brings i'd say hes worth it, theres no player like him and there never will be again. I'm a Barca fan first and foremost but Messi keeps me watching even under this dull manager

If Messi still want to compete for the CL after 2021 he'll have to take a paycut. It's not sustainable to keep a competitive team and the finances in order if he gets another raise or stays at the same salary level.

Barcelona have been loyal to him too, which is why they've made him clearly the highest paid footballer on the planet. It wouldn't be a bad thing for him to return the favor and ensure Barca stay competitive after he's done too.

 

[Kul_z]

So you admit there are other problems than just tiredness? You mentioned hunger but maybe it's just players failling under pressure in the CL? Yes, I know most of our (current and past) players have won everything but how else would you explain they are suddenly playing more relaxed when they are out of the CL as you said.

Can we really say all those (mostly mental) problems would go away if they would play less in January/February? As evident from my previous post most players especially Messi and Busi have played a lot less this season so we'll see if they'll perform better in the CL. If they won't then people will maybe finally stop blaming CDR for not winning the CL. Obviously EV will be the main culprit in most people minds followed by the usual suspects like Raki, Pique, Suarez and Roberto (if he'll play) while people will (again) look for excuses for Messi.

What I want to see against Lyon (and in further CL matches if we advance which I believe we will) is Messi running 8-9 kms and not walking 5-6 km like he usually does. And him scoring some goals/give assists in away games. If he does all of that and we still fail then we can talk about EV/team letting him down. If he doesn't then he's as much to blame as other players/EV. You need a team effort to win the CL but if Messi wants to be considered GOAT he should do more in those away QF/SF games than he did in 6 of the last 7 years.

Anyway about games you mentioned:
- Getafe away: tough game after two week break. No need to rotate in a game like this. We played with starters though Busi only came on for the last 20 minutes because he had some discomforts before the game
- Levante away (Copa): a lot of rotations, only Busi and Dembele were playing from starters. Coutinho as well if you consider him as a starter.
- Eibar home: some rest for Dembele otherwise we played a strong lineup; maybe there should be a bit more rotations here but starters were already rested in Levante game and you can't really expect players like Messi, Busi&Co. not to start in two consecutive games when healthy.
- Levante home (Copa): remontada part 1, good lineup though Busi and Pique stayed on the bench while Suarez played last 30 minutes
- Leganes home: Lenglet out of match squad; Messi and Raki subbed on for the last 25 minutes with a 1-1 scoreline
- Sevilla away (Copa): again a lot of rotations. Dembele (injured), Messi and Busi were watching a game from home, Alba and Semedo both played 45 minutes, Suarez on for the last 25 minutes.
- Girona away: almost a "gala XI" again though some rest for Arthur and Coutinho starting with Dembele out injured. Probably the only game I would say maybe we could rotate more (Murillo instead of Pique, Alena for Raki)
- Sevilla home (Copa): "gala XI" (except Cou for Dembele) for remontada part 2; obviously for people not caring about Copa we should again play with more rotations and go out but I really enjoyed that game so wouldn't change anything
- Valencia home: rest for Lenglet, Alba only played 45 minutes and Arthur the last 25
- Real Madrid home (Copa): Messi subbed on in 2nd half, Raki off at the same time
- Athletic Bilbao away: San Mames is not really a place to make rotations (especially not with a week without a game ahead) so strongest possible lineup but Alba (suspension) and Arthur (injured) didn't play.

So while Valverde (except Levante away game) didn't do some crazy rotations ala Lucho (starting 7 or 8 bench players and lose at home against Alaves) he still managed minutes well I think.




In 2016/17 RM had amazing bench with players like Morata and James winning them La Liga so CR and Modrić could be rested for the CL. After those players were sold they couldn't continue to play in two competitions last year. They gave up on La Liga before New Year so it's understandable they've rested players for the CL. I think they will also have some problems playing in three competitions this year.




As said above, except 2016/17 season they are usually out of serious La Liga title chances before knockout rounds of CL so it's obvious they concentrate on their only realistic chance to win something.

I know people blame CDR but Madrid usually also throw away La Liga early and concentrate on CL. How would you feel if we would be 10-15 points behind RM at this point? Yes, we could concentrate on the CL but nobody would actually believe we could win it, EV would be gone and everyone except Messi should be sold.

CL might be more glorified and a bigger desire for fans (especialy after RM's recent success) but I always give preference to La Liga. Whenever we win La Liga, I'm happy with our season. Not doing well in La Liga would bring unrest to the team and fans so we can't afford to just throw it away early in the season. And while our depth has improved we still don't have enough to win La Liga with bench players so starters must play more.

Well, i dont know if you like what you see from our team, cause i dont. Bench players not enough good to win us la liga? if they cant win us game against leganes, levante, eibar then something is terribly wrong with our game plan. If roberto, murillo, lenglet, semedo, arthur, vidal, alena, malcom, coutinho and boateng cant win us those games, which they actually should no problem considering quality they have compared to those teams mentioned, valverde is only to blame. He lacks automatism, his rotation policy is not quite the healthiest way to rotate. Those games in copa, he rotates almost everyone, or doesnt rotate at all. Lets say against levante copa away. He rotated everyone, played some stupid formation that hes not gonna use ever in the latter stages of the season. It was the perfect opportunity to see lets say coutinho at lm position, behind winger, he could use more of the first team guys, so the actual subs could slide in when needed. But no, without any cohesion with other players, put them together like they're playing some sunday league importance match, lose and then let gala guys show those players how it needs to be done while wasting more energy then they should compared to the opponent. Minutes could be managed easily and better for all the players, everybody could have some playing time and rotate them properly, not using them as scapegoats like hes doing it.
As for messi and cl ko stages underperforming: 11/12 chelsea penalty semifinal miss, dragged us to that semifinal
12/13 bayern humiliation, dragged us to semifinal, played injured and it ended how it ended, 13/14 atletico he went missing, but eliminated man city in round of 16, 14/15 , 15/16 atletico again went missing qf, 16/17 juventus went missing qf, 17/18 roma qf went missing. Our elimination was always connected with his underperforming, and our success and advancing with his performances, except remontada against psg. Those are facts. Isn't that a little bit too much, for six season in a row that amount of pressure on one man? He needs someone to step up when he's not on his game, like neymar did against psg. This guy dont have the luxury of one bad game and advancing like others do. He fails, we fail. So do the math why people wont blame him. I wont blame him until he makes some cardinal mistake that leads us to some kind of trailing and unwanted position(red card, own goal, misplaced pass or lost ball in some delicate area). Other then that, i think we have enough quality to show when he goes missing

 

[Arizona Scott]

....

I know people blame CDR but Madrid usually also throw away La Liga early and concentrate on CL. How would you feel if we would be 10-15 points behind RM at this point? Yes, we could concentrate on the CL but nobody would actually believe we could win it, EV would be gone and everyone except Messi should be sold.

CL might be more glorified and a bigger desire for fans (especialy after RM's recent success) but I always give preference to La Liga. Whenever we win La Liga, I'm happy with our season. Not doing well in La Liga would bring unrest to the team and fans so we can't afford to just throw it away early in the season. And while our depth has improved we still don't have enough to win La Liga with bench players so starters must play more.

I agree. The one thing kind of lost on the CL is it is the most out of your control of the trophies. You can have the bets team but one off game or fluke and your out. Winners have to be great teams, but they also need some luck. All 4 of Real's recent wins would have gone a different way with one different missed or made penalty or one different call/no-call. Not discounting their achievement, but still probably six or so 50/50 situations all had to go there way. This year one of Barcelona, City, Juve and Liverpool are not going to win it, and it is not unthinkable to think PSG, Madrid, Spurs, Bayern or Atletico could win it. Put all your eggs in the CL, likely to be disappointed even if you are a great team--nature of the format. League titles however almost always reflect the best teams and more in your control. Fergie (don't like the bastard BTW) is certainly considered among the best manager in football history but had 2 CL wins spanning three decades.

 

[henias]

CL might be more glorified and a bigger desire for fans (especialy after RM's recent success) but I always give preference to La Liga. Whenever we win La Liga, I'm happy with our season. Not doing well in La Liga would bring unrest to the team and fans so we can't afford to just throw it away early in the season. And while our depth has improved we still don't have enough to win La Liga with bench players so starters must play more.

Please. Nobody is saying we have to win the CL, but the fashion we have been going out were embarassing. And you had the cheek to say we have been playing good football under Valverde. Like come on.

We have no problem with La Liga for many years now, but the intensity and hunger has been missing. The fresh bloods, the ambition, planning, it all stems from the board, managers and of course players. EV has been making most decisions and is responsible for the tactics and morale of the squad and we brought in great amounts of talents recently as compared to the past few years.

I don't know since when Barcelona fans stoop to mediocrity and I actually do not give two shits about Madrid. You were the one who posted various head to head/ standings against Madrid, now when it comes to comparison with Madrid in regards to CL success, you act nonchalant. There's certainly something that can be done to improve our form in European stages. No one is saying we MUST win something. There's a difference.

Valverde is stifling this aspect of Barcelona that have been plaguing them and it should be someone who can alleviate the predicament. And EV is one of the safe coaches Bartomeu has been bringing in, looking for a short term relief, instead of a long term sustainable project.

And why do you keep saying how we could be doing worse, instead of how we could be doing better? And most people are not asking for much as you claim really, just better preparation and less humiliation.

Why do we have to wait for another Roma 2.0, and then act all surprised. People called it from day 1; The mistakes and the same short term vision, are clear as day, but EV is just the same puppet that the board brought, be it this or last season. So by saying there's other problems, EV is going get a pass?

I dont condone selling the squad, I dont believe people wants to sell the squad, I believe Rakitic and Busi are still great players. But there needs to be some sort of balance and reward system, not catering and safeguarding the seniors like life depends on it. That's not alot to ask.

Messi will get his criticism if he's the only one not performing. But as of now, this is not the case. It's affecting everyone.

 

[Luftstalag14]

From what I read Bartomeu said we will renew Messi, it will be an offer that Messi deserves but will not be astronomical.

Agreed with him 100% here.

 

[Arizona Scott]

Exactly, rotations has always been a huge isssue and even the managers never learnt their lessons, especially someone as obstinate like EV. It's stupidly obvious the late season's planning is always all messed up, when we need to compete on all fronts. How is this an excuse to say players were not putting in their effort when they all looked worst late season. Everytime after we got knocked out of CL, somehow the players look fresh again. It's no coincidence.

EV "resting" more players this season was because of the surge in injuries this season, especially the likes of Messi, Dembele, Umtiti, Suarez. And we have a better squad depth this season. But he wouldn't hesitate to use Messi as an emergency backup even when he is resting for his injury. Malcom constantly sidelined made no sense. And the overplaying of Rakitic and Busi are as senseless as well.

I am not a huge EV fan. Nor was I a huge LE fan.

However we had lost our stranglehold on La Liga the year before last and Madrid bombed us in the Supercup before last season started, and we had lost Neymar. The team had a great year last year, for me it was just a bit sour because Roma part II and Levante. Actually putting any energy in friendly over having an undefeated season pissed me off the more than the Roma showing because it would have eased the Roma pain and was avoidable.

This year EV will be judged if their is a another major CL failure.

 

[FCB1987]

Tomorrow could be dangerous for Leo's golden boot hopes. Juve are playing the 19th placed team at home and Allegri said Ronaldo won't rest

 

[KingLeo10]

Tomorrow could be dangerous for Leo's golden boot hopes. Juve are playing the 19th placed team at home and Allegri said Ronaldo won't rest

 

[Messi983]

Bench players not enough good to win us la liga? if they cant win us game against leganes, levante, eibar then something is terribly wrong with our game plan. If roberto, murillo, lenglet, semedo, arthur, vidal, alena, malcom, coutinho and boateng cant win us those games

No, I don't believe these players alone are good enough to win La Liga. Maybe if Coutinho would be in a better form (but then he would be a starter) and if we'd have better backup striker from the start of the season.

As for messi and cl ko stages underperforming: 11/12 chelsea penalty semifinal miss, dragged us to that semifinal
12/13 bayern humiliation, dragged us to semifinal, played injured and it ended how it ended, 13/14 atletico he went missing, but eliminated man city in round of 16, 14/15 , 15/16 atletico again went missing qf, 16/17 juventus went missing qf, 17/18 roma qf went missing. Our elimination was always connected with his underperforming, and our success and advancing with his performances, except remontada against psg. Those are facts. Isn't that a little bit too much, for six season in a row that amount of pressure on one man? He needs someone to step up when he's not on his game, like neymar did against psg. This guy dont have the luxury of one bad game and advancing like others do. He fails, we fail. So do the math why people wont blame him. I wont blame him until he makes some cardinal mistake that leads us to some kind of trailing and unwanted position(red card, own goal, misplaced pass or lost ball in some delicate area). Other then that, i think we have enough quality to show when he goes missing

It's hard to make cardinal mistakes when he's not even trying. That's my biggest grudge against Messi in those games we're talking about (ok, we can take out Bayern because he was injured and we were steamrolled so even the best Messi ever probably wouldn't save us). As said before if he'll show more energy/commitment and we'll still fail then I will also say teammates/EV have let him down but when he's not showing up he should also take his fair share of blame/responsibility for that.