11 - Ousmane Dembélé - V1

[Laplacian]

your boy Mbappe isn't doing any better these days.

Losing to french farmers even in a mickey mouse copa.

Mbappe has like 40 goals/assist, and is one of the best scorers in Europe. Before you go "lol ligue 1", do you honestly think Dembele would get 30+ goals in ligue 1? Curious. Mbappe's intelligence off and on the ball is world's apart from Dembele, he'd be doing so much better than Dembele in Barcelona. You're delusional if you think otherwise. Anyways I don't know when he became "my boy", he's too robotic for my liking. I prefer flair and dribblers like Ousmane Dembele, Neymar, Hazard, and Jadon Sancho.

Additionally, I don't see why that matters. Mbappe doing shit in ligue 1 doesn't change the fact that Dembele's doing terrible. Fucking Aleña has less than a season's worth of senior football compared to Dembele's 4 seasons, and he's 10x the fucking player Dembele is in intelligence. Dembele looks just as clueless as he did in his first few games, whereas Alena and Arthur already understand their teammates as if they've been at Barcelona playing for years.

 

[Respekt_III]

Regarding Dembele and how teammates are ignoring him...
Maybe some guys here should stop to post crazy conspiracy theories and crazy alibies and just go with Occam's razor principle in similar cases in the future.

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor



So, for example, if a player doesn't play too often (let's say Malcom).
1. the most likely explanation is: he doesn't play because he is meh
2. other, more crazy explanations are: he slept with EV's wife or EV is mad at the board for not buying Willian and a poor guy Malcom is suffering

On larger samples, you guys will realize that probably in 80-90% of cases, the most simple and the most logical explanation will turn out to be a correct answer.

The same is with: if a player doesn't play under 3-4 different coaches in a row (but fans rate him highly). Well, he usually doesn't play because he sucks, not because ALL coaches hate him for some reason.
The same, if a player (for whom fans think that he sucks, let's say Rakitic) is playing as a starter under several different coaches, there is usually a strong reason for that.
Again, it is NOT because he has EV's nudes or something.

Now, apply the same logic for Dembele (or any other player) and teammates who are ignoring him.
1) the answer could be some crazy conspiracy theory (South American connection, they don't like him as a person or who knows what).
2) or the simplest: players play together for several hours every day during rondos and 5 vs 5 matches (or whatever the combination is), and more or less they know: player's good sides, player's bad sides, player's IQ and similar.

I remember one match from 3-4 summers ago when Halilovic debuted for A team during a preseason match, and he was often free at a right flank, but Pique and teammates were ignoring him all the time.
People here wondered why, and whether our players are idiots or maybe they just hate a poor kid.
A few years later, it is quite clear that they were ignoring him because he was dumb as fuck and he would ruin every single action with solo action because he doesn't have any IQ.

Regarding Dembele, anyone who watched Barca during the last 2 years knows that:
1. Dembele has a huge talent
2. he can do some things which no one else can
3. but also he has lots of flaws, struggles in some basics
4. his IQ is still questionable
5. and Semedo and Dembele are probably two players with least connections and sync with other teammates (Coutinho comes close also)

So, when you pair Dembele's low-ish IQ, how even on his good days he doesn't look like fitting our system too well and add some injuries and how he is rusty and easily losing balls currenty...
= is it that crazy to guess that teammates were ignoring him because in this moment he is not the best option (again, paired with his IQ and decision's making, since our teammates are familiar with his decision making abilities?)

** Iirc, there were similar questions regarding Semedo in the past: why are teammates ignoring him when he is in good positions etc?
Well, because they see him on training grounds every day and teammates probably figured out that he is a lost cause in attack and that he totally lacks confidence and that he will just pass the ball backwards in almost every action.
So why bother and passing the ball to him?

Anyway, the simplest solution won't be the correct answer in EVERY single case.
But you can play a number's game and have more faith in numbers and the most simplest (and logical) solutions.

So: if someone is benched all the time, there is usually a reason.
If some player is a starter all the time, even though he sucks currently, there is a strong reason behind that. (Remember the posts: why is Suarez playing, he sucks! Why is Pique playing, anyone could play better than him! Well, they returned to their form later in a season, didn't they, and we are on a verge of a treble BECAUSE a stupid coach actually had faith in them when they played bad.)
If someone is ignored or looked for all the time (Messi) on the pitch, there is usually a strong reason for that.

That's fucking absurd. The fastest player in the team can break clean through on goal and potentially 'fuck it up' or just ignore that entire play and do fuck all with the ball instead... Coutinho was fucking absolutely trash for how long? constantly losing the ball etc yet was never ignored so blatantly.

Dembele "hasn't progressed"* because he's suffered a shit load of Injuries.
This isn't help by:
-the lack of a system/attacking patterns
-slow build up play
-slow and static striker

*Ignoring how unplayable he was pre-injury,
He would be an infinitely better player with a Liverpool or City.

Our "system" genuinely relys on MATs being out of this world/opponents having poor finishing and the individual quality of our squad (mainly Messi).

 

[George_Costanza]

The same is with: if a player doesn't play under 3-4 different coaches in a row (but fans rate him highly). Well, he usually doesn't play because he sucks, not because ALL coaches hate him for some reason.
The same, if a player (for whom fans think that he sucks, let's say Rakitic) is playing as a starter under several different coaches, there is usually a strong reason for that.
Again, it is NOT because he has EV's nudes or something.
.

Why don't you apply this logic of yours to Coutinho? He was the best Liverpool player under Brendan Rodgers and Klopp. He is arguably the best player in Brazil NT under Tite and had better WC than Neymar. There is usually a very strong reason why he performed so well under many coaches and different systems but your logical explanation he is mentally weak or doesn't fit.

 

[henias]

1. the most likely explanation is: he doesn't play because he is meh
2. other, more crazy explanations are: he slept with EV's wife or EV is mad at the board for not buying Willian and a poor guy Malcom is suffering

Ah, your narrative that "whoever EV doesnt pick is shit, those he picked isn't", isn't right either, in fact terribly wrong at times. Great way to bring in a principle while your own explanation is incredibly flawed as well.

 

[BBZ8800]

Why don't you apply this logic of yours to Coutinho? He was the best Liverpool player under Brendan Rodgers and Klopp. He is arguably the best player in Brazil NT under Tite and had better WC than Neymar. There is usually a very strong reason why he performed so well under many coaches and different systems but your logical explanation he is mentally weak or doesn't fit.

1. if a player plays under 3-4 different managers as a starter, but fans think that a player sucks=a player is usually very good and recognized by all coaches (and way better than fans think)
2. if a player is benched be several different managers in a row, but fans think that he is awesome=a player is usually just meh, and overrated by fans
----------------------------------------------------------------------
3. Coutinho played for some coaches and was benched by others.
You can't put him into any of categories from my post.

A perfect negative examples from my post are: Denis Suarez, Halilovic, Quaresma, even Samper etc
On the other hand, positive examples, hated by fans, loved by managers are for example: Rakitic, Paulinho (China, Barcelona, NT team).
Also, for example, today we can understand why BOTH Lucho and EV had more faith in Andre Gomes than in Denis.
Here, on Barcaforum, Gomes was rated as the worst footballer in our team.
Imo, even though he sucked and was a bad fit here, he is still miles ahead of Denis Suarez (who was, for example, fans' favorite here over Gomes, again: since he is lighter, more technical and has more flair).
But now in hindsight, it is quite simple to understand why was Gomes getting way more opportunities BOTH under Lucho and EV than fans' favorite Denis.
They both suck for Barca, but outside of Barca, Gomes is actually a good footballer and can have a decent career in a top flight football.
Denis, on the other hand, will never have a footballing career in any top club.

Or, take Samper for example: Lucho didn't have too much faith in him (our fans wondered why, since Samper was such "a gem").
EV didn't have any faith in him.
When he played on loans, he was a crap again.
Then, some of our fans had crazy excuses as always: a coach in a loaned club didn't love him. Or: they play a defensive football, not suitable for him. Or: they prefer their players and NOT loaned players.
While the truth is: Samper sucks and there was a reason why every single coach passed on him.

Or, remember when Halilovic lost his place BOTH at Sporting Gijon (under former Barca's player Abelardo) and at Las Palmas.
People had all sorts of crazy sci-fi excuses for our boy and why he was benched.
Fast forward to a present day: Halilovic was benched because he sucks in any club in which he plays.

Also, for some time, I am mentioning the same argument about Puig: he is crazily overrated here among Barca fans.
Yet, not a single Spanish youth NT coach was ever interested in him.
What do you think will prove to be a correct answer in 2-3-4 years?
1) All Spanish youth NT coaches were idiots for not recognizing Puig?
2) or all those coaches were right, Puig is good but nowhere near good enough for that level and thus overrated by Barca's fans

There will always be 1 out of 10 cases like:
Mourinho not recognizing Kevin De Bruyne.
Or Busi not playing in NT teams since he was a late bloomer.
But in other 9 out of 10 cases, a life will be way simpler if fans will turn off their emotions and love/hate bias towards players and just apply a simple logic.
For example, just wait until Malcom will go to some other (big) club and more or less he will be treated equally as here. BECAUSE he is not a player for biggest teams, but a started for Uefa cup and midtable European teams.

Ah, your narrative that "whoever EV doesnt pick is shit, those he picked isn't", isn't right either, in fact terribly wrong at times. Great way to bring in a principle while your own explanation is incredibly flawed as well.

We can go 1 by 1 case.
And let's see how many times a coach was wrong or right.

Gomes vs Denis.
Rakitic, a starter under all coaches.
Suaraz, a top3 Cf still.
Pique.
The only problem might be Coutinho, one of the best CAMs in the world. But then, that guy showed in his career that he COULD be a decisive top player, so a coach has more faith in him, the same as how he did have in Suarez and Pique when they were in a bad form.

On the other hand, in whom EV didn't have faith?
Samper, no comment needed
Denis, the same
Malcom, you'll see how his career will develop post Barca.
Dembele, injured half of a time, raw and out of form for a few Months each season after injuries, disconnected from a team when not injured, questionable IQ. In top form for probably 20% of time here in 2 seasons.

 

[Messigician]

He is too injury prone for my liking

 

[xXKonan]

I learned that no matter what this club does or certain players do BBZ won't ever be happy because of his certain taste.

Got to give him credit for persisting though.

 

[CatalinR10]

don't worry bbz will be back to ignoring this thread again for 3 months after he returns to be in form.

 

[FCB1987]

BBZ spot on again

 

[Potroh]

... a life will be way simpler if fans will turn off their emotions and love/hate bias towards players and just apply a simple logic.

Applying a "simple logic" - as you've put - seems unfortunately to be the hardest task for you.
"Simple logic" does not mean convoluted and twisted facts or imaginary and disconnected examples to be enveloped in an "interlaced" fashion - in order to look to be either facts or logical coherence.

The best example of this is your own sentence, where you now mention "love/hate bias towards players".
This is mentioned/stated by someone - you - who has been the one of the most biased souls and opiniatrety opining voice here - apart from some of the the single sentence folks, who bring and inherit their thoughts from pubs.

You've been doing the very same, biased and highly emotional statements, just enveloped differently...

Just look at your own last sentence about Dembele please:
- Dembele, injured half of a time - as if injuries were OFTEN the fault of the suffering players...
- raw and out of form for a few Months each season after injuries - as if his "form" wouldn't be natural having long gaps & what you name "raw" can also be named as "unpredictable", because he at least tries some things...
- disconnected from a team when not injured - as if his "form" wouldn't contain other ingredients (like nobody seems to pass a ball to him at the right place and time, regardless if he tries to run)...
- questionable IQ - which I don't even comment upon...
- In top form for probably 20% of time here in 2 seasons - that is simply not true, but even if it were, there are many other ingredients into it...

and just as an example, all these fragments clearly show that you simply dislike him, negatively abdicate him, and indeed this is the bias you rightly mention otherwise - apart from yourself...

 

[Arizona Scott]

I learned that no matter what this club does or certain players do BBZ won't ever be happy because of his certain taste.
.

There are far narrow viewed posters, he isn't one of the 10 most I can think off the top of my head driven by taste and bias.

That's fucking absurd

Not as absurd as the whole manager has it out to get certain players over his own self-interest and other conspiracy driven motives that are quite present on this board.

Why don't you apply this logic of yours to Coutinho? He was the best Liverpool player under Brendan Rodgers and Klopp. He is arguably the best player in Brazil NT under Tite and had better WC than Neymar. There is usually a very strong reason why he performed so well under many coaches and different systems but your logical explanation he is mentally weak or doesn't fit.

Actually Coutinho has played pretty well for Barca over a 14th month period, certainly he has played well enough to justify his playing time with Dembele being so often injured this year. Problem to many of posters is they judge him based on a 160 mil fee instead of one of 22 some odd players typically available for selection. And no he doesn't fit that great because we have a 1 of kind in Messi who has to get maximize freedom to operate wherever he wants, something neither Brazil has nor Liverpool has. I don't really see any contridiction between BBZ premise and managing Coutinho?

 

[behindbrowneyes]

He is too injury prone for my liking

This definitely hurts his development. He was quite unplayable before his injury but lost his flair since returning. It takes too much time for him to get back in form after injuries.

 

[Havesaks]

Someone knows how his 40m clauses will be activated?

 

[vuji_31]

Dembele's clause?

 

[BBZ8800]

Someone knows how his 40m clauses will be activated?

10M when Dembele will play 50 matches. He is on 45 matches now.
10M if we qualify for a CL in 2017/18 season.
Some sources say that we have already paid 5M for 25 matches paid 5M for reaching a Champions league in 2018 season.
Other sources say that we need to qualify for a CL in each of the next 4-5 years for those 10M to be paid.
Other 20M of addons are a secret and papers think that they are linked with Dembele's performances and team's success, like he needs to score a certain amount of goals, Barca needs to win La Liga or a CL etc.

Some other sources also say that we need to pay additional 30M penalties (regardless of a regular 105M fixed and 40M in addons) if we decide to sell him before his first contract expires.
I guess that a ratio of that clause is:
If Dembele stays here for 4-5 years, he will reach majority of addons, and Borussia will get 145M in the end.
If we sell him after 1 or 2 years, Borussia would get only 105M plus 15-20M addons achieved by then, and they would lose a chance to earn all 145M.
This is why they have included this clause. So, if we sell him after 1, 2 or 3 years, we will have to pay, let's say: 105M fixed, 20M addons achieved till then and additional 30M penalty for selling him before he could have achieved all potential addons clauses.