11 - Ousmane Dembélé - V1

[Birdy]

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION]
I think you are mixing up different aspects and different domains of characteristics.
The videos only show lack of social intelligence or lazyness to engage in conversation. How does this relate to football?
It's kind of superficial to jump from that to conclusions about tactical awareness.
As for these:

in upcoming Months, we learned that he has problems with an alarm clock, that he doesn't know what food he should be eating, that he was playing PS4 with friends every night, he had problems with stretching properly before matches in his first season.
And later, he had a weird/lazy body language, expressions, tons of bad decisions, vanilla celebrations,

all these are aspects of professionalism that he clearly lacked/lacks.
But he is a young lad. Yes, he might never mature, never become a proper professional, but we cannot foreclose that yet. It's a kid who is still learning and has a lot to learn

I haven't seen any argument yet about his tactical awareness with examples from games. That conversation will be far more interesting

 

[FCBfan22]

Too shy? LMAO. Sportsmen's outfield characters have nothing to do with their performance.

Take Kawhi Leonard, this year's NBA finals MVP, for instance. Textbook introvert, but a great, great basketball player.

 

[Arizona Scott]

Too shy? LMAO. Sportsmen's outfield characters have nothing to do with their performance.

Take Kawhi Leonard, this year's NBA finals MVP, for instance. Textbook introvert, but a great, great basketball player.

A leader too. That is the thing about teams sports guys can lead with very few words needed.

 

[YodaMaster]

Not cool to insult people's intelligence. Dembele might be indeed dumb, but you don't know that for a fact. There's one thing that is clear: he's in his own world sometimes, disconnected from the reality, he probably has concentration problems. But this 'disconnected from reality' thing is what makes him try crazy things on the field. Dembele is not like Alexis Sanchez, Dembele always tries complicated things on the field, even though Suarez won't stop screaming at him.

Is Dembele shy ? I'm not sure. Umtiti and Griezmann describe him as the funniest dude in a locker room. The guy is always joking and having a good laugh with his teammates.

But I do think he's lazy and kind of unprofessional. His professionalism will get better with age. His laziness could be fixed with the right people around him. He doesn't speak spanish well, and that's a laziness related problem.

He probably didn't adapt very well to the locker room and that's probably for 2 reasons:
- his laziness that prevents him from having better skills and communication with teammates
- the famous Barca locker room, full of senior 32yo players who want to stay in their comfort zone

I think that Dembele didn't click too well with the senior players (Suarez, Messi, Busquets, Rakitic). Rakitic (this useless fraud) actually openly criticized him. Suarez did too, he also screams a lot on Dembele during the games, and almost certainly put pressure to have Coutinho - his good friend - in the starting 11.

Now, I'm not just blindly defending Dembele here. He deserved some of the critics. And it's also his fault that he didn't click with seniors, he should have learned spanish way faster for example. But I mostly think that this locker room + coach became toxic for young players.
Look at Arthur and Semedo. They aren't in much better situations than Dembele, while one of them has been 100% professional (Semedo) and the other one is the best midfielder the club has had before FDJ's arrival. They both ended up being benchwarmers. And it doesn't look like they're big buddies with those veterans.

Dembele is good friends with Malcom, Umtiti, Boateng, Vidal and Coutinho. He's not shy, he's a sociable and funny guy who brings happy atmosphere in training grounds.

Now on the pitch, Dembele isn't dumber than Coutinho, he's actually smarter. An in-form Dembele makes good choices and brings on a lot of danger. He still loses the ball, but the guy has good ideas and good vision offensively. While Coutinho on the other hand, will lose the ball trying useless shit.

I think Dembele isn't the biggest problem. The environment in Barcelona is.

Dembele won't become a Barca leader like Ronaldinho was, or Messi is. But Dembele has all the tools to become a world class winger. Today I see no under 23yo winger with better potential than Dembele. It doesn't mean that Dembele will for sure make it at Barca and become great. But if Barca stops being a toxic environment and becomes a good place again (which means having a good non toxi locker room and a good coaching staff), there's a good chance Dembele becomes a great winger.

Barça doesn't have to always have an alien attacker like Messi, Ronaldinho or R9. Look at Liverpool's attacking trio, 3 very good players (Mané, Salah, Firmino) but none of them is out of this world, and that's enough for them to be the current best attacking trio in the world. Dembele, under the right circumstances, could easily reach that level.

Now if Barto's plan is to reinforce Valverde and club de amigos, then Dembele should get away from here.

 

[serghei]

I don't think it's down to Dembele being dumb as in a stupid person. I think he is still a kid and hasn't totally grown up, and to me it's obvious that he is overwhelmed by what Barca is at this age for him. He's not ready to rise up to the challenge and deal with the pressure. He's not very confident, and in order to succeed at this level, you need to be bold, brave and very confident. Especially with a manager like Valverde who basically does very very little to help the guys struggling with confidence issues. If anything, he even makes it harder for them. This is why he is such a bad bad manager for aspiring young players who are not world beaters, but with work and right management, they could be.

 

[Perfect-football]

I have wrote it in the past, some guys whined about repeating the same thing.
I didn't watch Dembele too much before Barca and I didn't analyze his IQ or positioning because I didn't care about him.

But when we signed him, I remember I talked to one of my friends, who is a Liverpool fan (so, he is a neutral and there is no reason to be biased or to hate him).
And I asked him: what do you think about Dembele? Will he make it at Barca?
And my friend immidiately rolled his eyes, laughed and said: why did you buy him? That guy looks as almost retarded.
I was confused and asked: what?
And he replied: me and other friends discussed it a few days ago: have you seen his interview and his Barca's presentation? A guy looks dumb and very clumsy.

Later I watched those two videos, but I thought that Dembele was just confused and not dumb.
But then, in upcoming Months, we learned that he has problems with an alarm clock, that he doesn't know what food he should be eating, that he was playing PS4 with friends every night, he had problems with stretching properly before matches in his first season.
And later, he had a weird/lazy body language, expressions, tons of bad decisions, vanilla celebrations, zero chemistry with anyone in a team except with Semedo (who is another weird as fuck guy with a weird personality) and similar.

All in all, when you sum it all, he has a huge talent, he is extremely hot and cold.
he can score a golazo, only to miss 2 easy passes after that.
He can score 2 golazos in 5 minutes and then look as if he doesn't want to play football for the next 30 minutes.

Yesterday there was even an article in Mundo Deportivo, saying similar things about him very hot and cold and irregular.
Google translate:


Anyway, here are 2 videos from the beginning of my story.
So, this is not something which I have invented. Actually, a few of my friends are laughing at Dembele and his clumsiness all the time (people will reply: they don't understand football, or they are jealous )

Again, a modern football is quite a complicated sport.
And a team like Barca usually plays the most complicated type of football.
And then, the attackers are carrying the burden of the most complicated team in a quite a complicated sport.
Imo, this is why Barca's attackers today need to have a lot of talent, but also IQ, tactical understanding and mental traits mentioned before.

Regarding Dembele, my estimation in June/July 2019 is:
1. he will either remain the same Dembele as we know today, without much improvement
2. or he will slightly improve into a guy who will be able to bang 15-20 goals per season, but who still won't be a leader of Barca and who will always remain extremely hot and cold in his performances due to his personality and not too high motivation/drive compared to some other top footballers.
He will remain that weird, disconnected guy, except that he will have more brilliant moments.
Consistency and even performances for 90 minutes? Highly unlikely, due to his personality and motivation.
He'll probably end as a slightly more talented/better version of Alexis Sanchez, Quaresma or Balotelli than reaching Ronaldinho's, Rivaldo's or Etoo's heights.

So, imo, there is no way that he will reach heights which majority of guys here are expecting, neither at Barca nor in any other club after Barca.

I find it amazing to treat others as idiots you do not even know. Do you believe smarter than others?
stop talking nonsense.

 

[Messigician]

I agree with BBZ overall

 

[LMTR14]

I don't think it's down to Dembele being dumb as in a stupid person. I think he is still a kid and hasn't totally grown up, and to me it's obvious that he is overwhelmed by what Barca is at this age for him. He's not ready to rise up to the challenge and deal with the pressure. He's not very confident, and in order to succeed at this level, you need to be bold, brave and very confident. Especially with a manager like Valverde who basically does very very little to help the guys struggling with confidence issues. If anything, he even makes it harder for them. This is why he is such a bad bad manager for aspiring young players who are not world beaters, but with work and right management, they could be.

likely not. I've once seen a documentary on this guy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrincha and they said he was enormously dumb, basically retarded – but that didn't prevent him from becoming become a world class player and play next to Pele and stuff. football doesn't need a big iq

 

[Leo_Messi]

Football intelligence and intelligence as a whole are two completely different things. Maradona, Ronaldo and Messi being prime examples of that to mention a few along with the majority of all footballers in fact. Dembélé might be as dumb as a doorknob but there is no way that he is dumb in terms of football intelligence. The main problem of his have been injuries, lack of continuity, "club de amigos" seeing him as a foe (Suárez in particular) and not a friend and Valverde being a clueless "gestionario" as calling him a manager would not only be unfitting but also untrue.

It is criminal that a player of his talent and obvious abilities (insane pace and acceleration, being two-footed, runs behind the defense, potential) has not really had much of a development in 2 seasons. He might in fact have less confidence than when he arrived. Had Pep, Klopp, Pochettino or any other truly world class manager managed him for 2 years, he would most likely have been one of the most talked about players currently.

Not to mention that those teams (Liverpool, Tottenham and Man City) actually have a playing style. Unlike our playing style of "giving the ball to Messi" and sit back and wait. Or to sit back deep against similar opponents on paper and play on the counter with a midfield composed of dinosaurs and one of the slowest attacks in world football when Dembélé is not available. With Alba being the only predictable threat in terms of offensive runs.

Dembélé in the current Liverpool team would be a success without any doubts whatsoever. A big one at that too.

 

[Poor_Sunyol]

Dude, he couldn't trap a bag of cement. His problem is exactly his lack of football intelligence. That is what annoys the senior players, who see him at training every day BTW (when he bothers to turn up). Whether he would be a success with another club playing a counter attack style is irrelevant really. The point is that he is not right for Barca. I don't hate the man, I'm just sick of hoping that he comes good. He's gone backwards.

 

[Leo_Messi]

Dude, he couldn't trap a bag of cement. His problem is exactly his lack of football intelligence. That is what annoys the senior players, who see him at training every day BTW (when he bothers to turn up). Whether he would be a success with another club playing a counter attack style is irrelevant really. The point is that he is not right for Barca. I don't hate the man, I'm just sick of hoping that he comes good. He's gone backwards.

I did not see that "imaginary" lack of "football intelligence" at Rennes nor Dortmund. After a 2017-2018 season where he spent more time getting fit than playing, Deschamps did not drop him either for a stacked France team. He keeps using him to this day.

Him getting late or not turning up once, is now supposedly a chronic occurrence?

Which player is the right fit in the current setup of "play the ball to Messi and see what kind of magic he will create"? Ever wondered that Dembélé (despite his obvious talent let alone potential) is not the only player that has been struggling in recent years? Coutinho went from one of the better players on his position to an even bigger fraud than Dembélé. With no objective facts such as young age, a language barrier, long-term injuries, not being part of the main clan ("club de amigos") being an excuse.

Could it have something to do with the current tactical setup, the manager, the lack of sporting project etc.? Or the fact that Dembélé has not had 3 consecutive (!) games in a row EVER where he has played at least 90 minutes? Or that he is used completely wrongly. Reducing him to a winger tied to the touchline on either the left or right is a waste of his obvious talents. Instead of Messi etc. feeding him with through balls to run behind the defense using his insane pace and acceleration, he is wasted or ignored by the seniors in particular Suárez or glued to the touchline where he can do the least damage. Much like Messi (not comparing their talents as it would be insane), he needs to play closer to the opposition's goal. He has all the potential to be a consistent goalscorer albeit a more unorthodox one much like Eto'o was. He too started as a winger (even a right back) at Mallorca and was loaned to numerous clubs where successive managers could not see his potential.

But sure, let us get rid of him and buy Griezmann and Neymar in the same transfer window while keeping a past it 33 year old dinosaur like Suárez who is only going to get worse and a declining Messi that is not going to get better either. Make the slowest top team even more slow on paper too. Messi contributing zero defensively, this version of Suárez equally, Neymar (not even going to mention the obvious) and Griezmann being the sole exception but I don't think that Griezmann left Cholo's training regime and rigid system for him to turn into a workhorse for us. But if you believe MD (Nolla in particular) he is able to play in Iniesta's position similar to how Coutinho was the "ideal" successor of Don Andrés!

 

[Hamzah]

This is a controversial statement, but Barca won't be able to win a CL again until Messi leaves/retires imo. The way the team needs to be set up around him is too hard to create, especially with a limited manager like Valverde. He's also quite old now. The smart thing to do would be to prepare the team to be ready for his exit and have a balanced team mostly set up already.

As far as Dembele goes, I don't see him as an Eto'o type like you do, Eto'o had a killer instinct which Dembele seems to lack, especially in front of goal. I see Dembele as a very talented creative/support player in one of the attacking midfield positions (right, left or centre). He could take the creative burden along with one or two others once Messi goes (it will take multiple players to match the creative output of one Messi).

 

[malvolio]

This is a controversial statement, but Barca won't be able to win a CL again until Messi leaves/retires imo. The way the team needs to be set up around him is too hard to create, especially with a limited manager like Valverde. He's also quite old now. The smart thing to do would be to prepare the team to be ready for his exit and have a balanced team mostly set up already.

the real problem with messi is him not having the creative support from midfield. he usually ends up as the main creative outlet for our attack. it's no coincidence that argentina plays like shit without good creative midfielders and barca does the same since losing xavi and iniesta.

that and a fat suarez upfront.

 

[FCBfan22]

This is a controversial statement, but Barca won't be able to win a CL again until Messi leaves/retires imo. The way the team needs to be set up around him is too hard to create, especially with a limited manager like Valverde. He's also quite old now. The smart thing to do would be to prepare the team to be ready for his exit and have a balanced team mostly set up already.

As far as Dembele goes, I don't see him as an Eto'o type like you do, Eto'o had a killer instinct which Dembele seems to lack, especially in front of goal. I see Dembele as a very talented creative/support player in one of the attacking midfield positions (right, left or centre). He could take the creative burden along with one or two others once Messi goes (it will take multiple players to match the creative output of one Messi).

Well, I partly agree. I think there is no way that we can win another CL with Leo and Fatass on the field. Defending with 8 outfield players against young and hungry sides...

However, I think we can win it wit Leo, if we drop the fat (Suarez), play someone there who actually runs and defends and use Leo as the added value to the team, not the team as an added value to Leo.

 

[Poor_Sunyol]

I did not see that "imaginary" lack of "football intelligence" at Rennes nor Dortmund. After a 2017-2018 season where he spent more time getting fit than playing, Deschamps did not drop him either for a stacked France team. He keeps using him to this day.

Him getting late or not turning up once, is now supposedly a chronic occurrence?

Which player is the right fit in the current setup of "play the ball to Messi and see what kind of magic he will create"? Ever wondered that Dembélé (despite his obvious talent let alone potential) is not the only player that has been struggling in recent years? Coutinho went from one of the better players on his position to an even bigger fraud than Dembélé. With no objective facts such as young age, a language barrier, long-term injuries, not being part of the main clan ("club de amigos") being an excuse.

Could it have something to do with the current tactical setup, the manager, the lack of sporting project etc.? Or the fact that Dembélé has not had 3 consecutive (!) games in a row EVER where he has played at least 90 minutes? Or that he is used completely wrongly. Reducing him to a winger tied to the touchline on either the left or right is a waste of his obvious talents. Instead of Messi etc. feeding him with through balls to run behind the defense using his insane pace and acceleration, he is wasted or ignored by the seniors in particular Suárez or glued to the touchline where he can do the least damage. Much like Messi (not comparing their talents as it would be insane), he needs to play closer to the opposition's goal. He has all the potential to be a consistent goalscorer albeit a more unorthodox one much like Eto'o was. He too started as a winger (even a right back) at Mallorca and was loaned to numerous clubs where successive managers could not see his potential.

But sure, let us get rid of him and buy Griezmann and Neymar in the same transfer window while keeping a past it 33 year old dinosaur like Suárez who is only going to get worse and a declining Messi that is not going to get better either. Make the slowest top team even more slow on paper too. Messi contributing zero defensively, this version of Suárez equally, Neymar (not even going to mention the obvious) and Griezmann being the sole exception but I don't think that Griezmann left Cholo's training regime and rigid system for him to turn into a workhorse for us. But if you believe MD (Nolla in particular) he is able to play in Iniesta's position similar to how Coutinho was the "ideal" successor of Don Andrés!

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you that Dembele had a great season with Dortmund (one season), which is why we broke the bank in signing him. The fact is that he doesn't fit our system and we are not going to change our system (yes there is another debate to be had there I know) to accommodate him. Ergo the only solution is to cash in on him. Another poor season (and you can't agrue that he hasn't had two poor seasons) and his value will drop even more.