11 - Ousmane Dembélé - V1

[RMU ReBorn]

He's so much better than Neymar!

Yes he is . Far far better and is already a proven talent in europe at 20 unlike the Brazilian fraud who was bullying Brazilian clubs at 20

 

[MessiCam]

You just killed yourself with comparing Messi with Dembele. Just like that guy (Zincubus) who said so what Gomes hoofed the ball, Messi made mistakes too!

I wasn't comparing the 2... I was just pointing out that Dembélé's lost possession is being blown out of proportion. It's something I've brought up many times too and he is no worse than any of our other forwards but he is the only one that gets stick for it and he is by an order of magnitude the least experienced.

 

[Barcaman]

You are doing it again.

 

[BarçaBarça]

Great goal from him - and really important that he showed Valverde he was worth the bet.
I didn't expect anymore from him, than what he showed: Willingness to defend, good fighting spirit and a decisiveness when it mattered. To expect him to outshine Willian is crazy, and he did at least as good as Hazard in a very important CL-game, that is something for him right now.

He will get a lot of league-games to prove that he can be an asset from now on in the CL as well.

 

[MessiCam]

You are doing it again.

Maybe if you read his statement you'll understand...

If the whole idea of 4-3-3, as cruyff conceived it, was to make the two wingers some sort of transitional midfielders to maintain possession, then Demele sure did nothing to materialize this whole ideology. He looses the ball way, way wayyyyyyyyyyy too much for my taste i'm sorry. At one point you can see that he relays this nervousness to the teammates. Lost many balls today and did odd risky dribbles totally uncalled for and missed them, and used some trickery many times also for no clear purposes.. The result is a 53% possession against a Conte chealsea which is embarassing.

Emphasis on the bold... If he has such a big issue with lost possession impacting the teams possession phases then it shouldn't matter who is losing the ball. Right?

Me on the other hand, unlike [MENTION=20741]Total-Football[/MENTION] and [MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION], don't care when forwards lose the ball. It's part and parcel of their game.

 

[biraboyz]

Some comments here just make you feel like throwing up. When other players lose the ball, these people do not count but with Dembele they have the stat. Are some people too dumb to realize that a player who often tries to create something will lose the ball many times? Even the legendary Messi was robbed of the ball a couple of times.

well they need to use something for their agenda, someone already post stats of lose balls and TO here

 

[BBZ8800]

Do fans of other clubs complain about the defensive deficiencies of their winger like (alleged) Barca fans have been doing with Dembele this season?

I don't think I've ever seen the topic of tracking back, pressing hard enough, etc. ever be raised when talking about the likes of Hazard, Robben, Neymar, et al., but this seems to be a weekly occurrence now with Dembele critics. Outside of Sanchez, can one of his Dembele's critics cite some talented wingers who have a high defensive workrate that you think he should learn from?

Hazard don't have to mark his players THAT hard because all 10 field players at Chelsea are marking their players, including attackers.

At Barca, we have Messi and Suarez.
They don't play defense.
So, a winger-forward in Chelsea is allowed to be mediocre in marking.
At a current Barca, where 2 players already can't defend, THAT is a problem.

In a world when Messi won't play here, Dembele will be able to play weak defense (I mostly mean at marking part, where he is just running like a lost kid around player, not knowing how to track him, how to mark him, where to run. When I look at him, I have a feeling that a coach told him to track back more, and now he is trying to do that, but in his head he has no clue whom to mark, when to run, when to do anything. But he is afraid to tell to a coach that he has no clue about anything in defense. So, he is just running up and down, without too much purpose and hoping for the best).

Ah, I see, so he's supposed to do something that isn't demanded of the other top players at his position.

Anyway, yes.
In each club, a setup is different and your duties are different based on a club's tactics and formation and based on your teammates.

At Barca, the way how Dembele is currently defending, will be a problem in a CL matches.
We should be perfectly fine against Girona though.

He had to defend extremely deep and cover for Roberto at RB several times when he was nowhere to be seen (wandering somewhere off centrally, marking no one). Vidal also did this a bit when he subbed in.

Dembele shouldn't have to be called on defensively as much as he was, and less so being the primary defender in a 1v1. His job is to press and provide support, not hold down the flank on his own while Roberto ran around doing whatever tf he was doing.

Ok, I have said it on chat, but here is more important, since posts here stay longer.

So, you are saying all the time how RB Roberto was lost several times.
Further, people said yesterday how Busi was horrible and exposed.
Then people said how Raki is slow and exposed.

Now, what, what, what if...

RB Roberto is exposed because he didn't have 4 TRUE midfielders infront of him (Iniesta, Busi, Raki, Paulinho) like in a 442?
What if Busi is exposed because he had only Iniesta and Raki around him and NOT Iniesta, Raki and Paulinho.
I mean, if a field is 60 meters wide (or whatever the number is), if you have 4 men in a line, each of them will need to cover roughly 15 meters of a field.
If you remove Paulinho and put Dembele who plays wider and is lost in defense, you don't have 4 classic CMs (Ini, Busi, Raki, Paulinho) in a line anymore, BUT ONLY 3 guys.
That suddenly means that Busi needs to cover 20 meters of space and NOT only 15 meters like in a 4men midfield.
The same about Raki.
He is always slow.
But he is not AS MUCH as exposed when we play with a 4 men because his teammates are close, they are helping him and covering for him when needed and he needs to cover less space.

So, you guys are not surprised that half of our players suddenly look like shit in defending when we play 433?

That's a trade off.
433 brings more power in attack, but you will also get this horror show in defense against majority of big teams.
Our midfield and defense yesterday in a 433 looked a lot of times THE SAME as against Psg in a 4:0 defeat last year.
The opponents were able to run through the middle (where we have only 3 Cms), the opponents were able to run through our flanks (only 1 defender at our right side Roberto-Dembele) and in general it seemed as if we played with 10 men.
In the last 20 minutes, after 3:0, we regained possession after Chelsea have gave up.
But if we would remove possession from the last 20 minutes, I guess that a possession in the first 70 minutes was something like 45:55 for Chelsea, right?

I mean, imagine when you are outplayed on a possession at home against a defensive English team, coached by an Italian coach.

I am happy for the win and everything, but I hate 433 SO MUCH in 2018.
That is an outdated formation (imo), and it is especially outdated for players whom we currently have.

If we'll play 433 against Bayern, Man City, RM or even Liverpool, we have a nice chance to see another 3:0 or 4:0 defeat in Psg's style.
433 is good against small teams and when you need to attack.
Against big teams, especially in away games, it may be suicidal, as always in the last 5-6 years of our CL adventures.

Let's go back to your comment about Roberto:
1. when we play 442 with Ini-Raki-Busi-Pau:
-- Roberto has Paulinho infront of him
-- and 4 players covering only 15m
2. when you play 433 with Dembele-Roberto
-- Roberto has Dembele instead of Paulinho in defense infront of him
-- and 3 players covering 20 meters each
-- so, Raki has more to cover in midfield compared to a 442, plus, in 442 he has Paulinho near him and now he has Dembele

In short: of course that a lot of our players look like shit in defense in our current 433 with this set of players.
This match reminded us on Lucho's days with our team all over the place, isn't it?
Is that a coincidence?

My opinion is still: if we would have played 433 under EV, our season would have looked like quite similar to Lucho's, long term on a larger sample of matches.

These are Dembélé's stats which led to turnovers;

3 Failed take-ons
5 Failed passes
1 Dispossession
1 Unsuccessful touch

So Dembélé was responsible for 10 turnovers...

Now these are Suárez stats which led to turnovers;

0 Failed take-ons
6 Failed passes
2 Dispossessions
2 Unsuccessful touches

So Suárez was responsible for 10 turnovers...

And here are Messi's;

3 Failed take-ons
7 Failed passes
4 Dispossessions
2 Unsuccessful touches

Messi responsible for 16 turnovers...

So in conclusion he was no worse in terms of possession loss than the other forwards.

That's not how you should read stats.
You need one more factor here, called: how many attempts a player had.

If you lost 10 balls out of 20 attempts, that is bad.
If you lost 10 balls out of 100 attempts, that is a different story.

So, go back to your stats now and check how many times Messi touched the ball and how many times Dembele touched the ball.
Also, how many successful passes and dribbles Messi had and how many Dembele had.

With the way how you posted stats, it may sound as if Messi and Dembele had an equal game.

Oh, you should add a stat for: slipping.
Messi never slips for 10 years in a row.
This kid is slipping all the time, like Alexis.
Is someone (Luis or Pique) making jokes with him and had they put some honey on his shoes or what?
That's the only possible explanation.

 

[Ousmane Dembélé]

Difference between Messi getting stagnated in Stamford bridge and him getting lot's of spaces in second leg was Dembele's presence . People will bitch over lost balls ,but won't give him credit for that . Even in Juve match Messi was a different beast all together with Dembouz's presence

There might be something to this.

Dembele has only played two matches for us in the CL so far; Juventus (H) and Chelsea (H). Those two matches also happened to be Messi's best by far. It may be just a coincidence, but I have a feeling the two events are related in someway or another.

 

[wisconsincule]

What a fucking rocket. So happy for him!!!!

 

[Messi983]

Solid game overall, I think he's feeling much more confident every game and will slowly "forget" about his injury that was clearly still in his mind in recent weeks. EV should still manage his minutes well and not play him 90 minutes in every game to prevent another collapse though.

Nice goal and I think he did well defensively too. That tackle was nice but I think he also pressured well. He still needs to work on positional awareness and discipline when back tracking but that's understandable. As long as he'll show commitment and defensive work rate I think EV is the right coach to improve this aspect of Dembele's game.

His attacking potential is undeniable and when he'll learn the system and his team mates better and get their confidence he'll become even better. I think Messi is already starting to show more trust in him which is obviously a good sign but it will still take some time for them to develop chemistry.

 

[MessiCam]

That's not how you should read stats.
You need one more factor here, called: how many attempts a player had.

If you lost 10 balls out of 20 attempts, that is bad.
If you lost 10 balls out of 100 attempts, that is a different story.

So, go back to your stats now and check how many times Messi touched the ball and how many times Dembele touched the ball.
Also, how many successful passes and dribbles Messi had and how many Dembele had.

With the way how you posted stats, it may sound as if Messi and Dembele had an equal game.

Oh, you should add a stat for: slipping.
Messi never slips for 10 years in a row.
This kid is slipping all the time, like Alexis.
Is someone (Luis or Pique) making jokes with him and had they put some honey on his shoes or what?
That's the only possible explanation.

Dembélé received the ball 27 times, Suárez received the ball 26 times and Messi 54 times.

And I wasn't comparing their other contributions... The poster I was responding to said Dembélé's ball losses were responsible for the poor possession phases. That's clearly wrong....

Also, we did not play 4-3-3 last night. We played 4-4-2 and were overrun in midfield AGAIN. Here are the facts - Eevery time we've played a 4-3-3 this year we've dominated and conceded very little. Your argument is made up of pixie dust.

So Dembélé lost the ball on 37% of touches, Suárez 38.5% and Messi 29.6%.

Ah, so now the possession loss argument doesn't work, the tracking back argument doesn't work... Lets find something else. Look! He slips.

 

[MessiCam]

There might be something to this.

Dembele has only played two matches for us in the CL so far; Juventus (H) and Chelsea (H). Those two matches also happened to be Messi's best by far. It may be just a coincidence, but I have a feeling the two events are related in someway or another.

Dembélé will automatically allow Messi more space but I don't think that was the case last night. Dembélé played in midfield and Messi alternated between the flanks and spent very little time in the centre in the opposition half.

 

[ASordidGod]

There might be something to this.

Dembele has only played two matches for us in the CL so far; Juventus (H) and Chelsea (H). Those two matches also happened to be Messi's best by far. It may be just a coincidence, but I have a feeling the two events are related in someway or another.

Well defenders know they have to remain vigilant around dembele in a way they don't around paulinho say. Plus dembele has pace so instinctively when he recieves it they step back. Both of which means Messi isn't the sole focus of attention, which in turn gives him more space/time. imo anyway.

 

[BBZ8800]

Dembélé received the ball 27 times, Suárez received the ball 26 times and Messi 54 times.

And I wasn't comparing their other contributions... The poster I was responding to said Dembélé's ball losses were responsible for the poor possession phases. That's clearly wrong....

Also, we did not play 4-3-3 last night. We played 4-4-2 and were overrun in midfield AGAIN. Here are the facts - Eevery time we've played a 4-3-3 this year we've dominated and conceded very little. Your argument is made up of pixie dust.

So Dembélé lost the ball on 37% of touches, Suárez 38.5% and Messi 29.6%.

Ah, so now the possession loss argument doesn't work, the tracking back argument doesn't work... Lets find something else. Look! He slips.

When I say 442 I mean 4 TRUE midfielders, like: Iniesta/Coutinho/Rakitic/Busquets/Gomes/Paulinho.
What we played yesterday might have been 442 on paper, but that is a totally different formation because Dembele is not a CM in 442 but a true winger-attacker.
We basically played 432 with Dembele somewhere on the field.

So, it was way closer to 433 than to 442.
Or, it was way closer to a 3men midfield than to a EV's classical 4men midfield.

 

[Ousmane Dembélé]

He's barely made ten appearances this season, but somehow he's snuck into the French team.

He's playing for a trip to Russia this international break.