You need to get informed before you generously offer advice...Ignorant is no way to go through life
You're out of line with your personal attacks. If you felt sure in your case then you wouldn't be grasping at straws. And you seem to take me for being Pro-Madrid.
Well gee, give that kid an economic degree or credit for concluding what everyone on the planet already knows...It's mostly about the economy
Well gee, that superiority complex of yours is unnerving. Talking to you brings back memories of discussing with 18 year old female communists back home (happens a lot). Suddenly, I'm stupid because I don't see it from their point of view. Then I'm a fascist because I don't support their ideals. Then I'm the devil because I have arguments to back up what I believe.
So your contention is that there are no deep seated issues regarding cultural & ethnic tensions...This is your experience at the pubs in Barcelona?...Football has been an expression of that identity for both Catalans & Basques for far longer than the current economic crisis
Deep seated issues? In a city where every street name, poster, flyer and menu is in Catalan? In a city where people from other parts of Spain are struggling to find schools for their kids where everything isn't in Catalan? Contrary to what you might think, Spain is no longer a brutal dictatorship. Spain is a a Western European country with all the benefits of one. People here are living fairly good lives or they were before the crisis. Most of the ethnic tension (which does exist) can be traced to the younger generations who embody all the romantic nationalistic ideals. It's like communists: In most Western European countries they're all young and full of ideas for how to make the world a better place. Then they grow up and realize things aren't all bad.
You've already conceded you don't know much about it, dismiss opinions of others and still have time to explain what the real issues are...Dizzying logic
You don't know squat either. You think, like so many others on these boards, that by becoming a fanatical Catalanist you will become a better Barca fan or even closer to the culture. Grow up.
If you deduced from my comment that there's genocide ongoing than I can see you are out of your depth here...I can also see your historical perspective is pretty limited...There is a reason why Catalans, Irish, Palestinians and other oppressed cultural identities find connection with one another and the club, in particular
Haha. Your straw-grasping abilities are amazing. Did you grow up on a farm? If I mentioned genocide then it was sarcastic because there is nothing even close to resembling genocide down here. Yeah, Catalans are horribly oppressed and have been the last 30 years. I heard they're being transported to factory facilities in Madrid to be used as slave labor.
But seriously, most people these days seem fairly content with their lives (if we take away the crisis of course). They watch their plasma TV, smoke their weed in the park, kiss their lovers on the benches in the park, drink their beers and break jokes after they've taken their children to school. Seriously, stop comparing them to Palestinians. Last I checked about the Palestinian crisis a group of Israeli farmers had descended upon a Palestinian village and started shooting at young teenagers for sport.
You've prefaced it by pointing out you don't really know about it, that's the bottom line
Not really since the stuff I've posted comes from what I've heard from people here. I told you that.
Sweeping politics under the rug does not change the reality that it is indeed relevant
I didn't say that politics were irrelevant. But I can't vote here and neither can you. Trying to decide whether Catalunya will stay part of Spain or become independent is just something that'll give you a headache.
You claim many are supporters of PP in Barcelona yet how would these same supporters feel once their party leaders incited riots against Catalans?
You're blowing this out of proportions as if the PP incites regular hate. It's all a matter of lack of communication between the separatists and the unionists.
You're at a loss?...I wasn't me who was so daft to suggest that ethnic/cultural tensions are subdued today because there are less pure Catalans - that was you...Same kind of racist rhetoric we've seen applied to many ethnically divided people whether it's the occupied territories, Bosnia, Ireland, etc.
Really? You sound pretty racist to me, keeping a Catalan purist kind of view. Only those with the right blood-line have the right to stay in this country according to you? They can't intermix? And if there are less true Catalans out there then why does that make me racist? Being Catalan is, like in most Latin European countries, very much a cultural phenomenon. It's not necessarily ethnic. Catalans themselves are an ethnic mix of different peoples: Romans, Levantese/North African Roman slaves, Phoenicians, Visigoths, Berbers, Arabs, Gaels. You seem to have completely missed my point (not surprisingly, you're clearly riled up over this matter and you start reading what you want to read): Catalans are not being ethnically or culturally wiped out. It's more likely that they're absorbing the people who come and have come from other parts of Spain. Secondly, the whole point of my post was to, and let me do this with bold letters so you can understand, show you that
many Catalans have some degree of Spanish ancestry or family and therefore they do not hate Spain as much as you make them out to.
It's patently naive to dismiss the ethnic tensions that persist for both the Basque & Catalans in Spain let alone assume you've got the pulse of the majority of people...Next thing you'll tell us is that Spanish is more commonly spoken in the city than Catalan too...
No it's not. But what does what they speak have to do with anything? If anything it shows that Catalan is flourishing and not being brutally suppressed. And the Basques are a different case, having a non-Latin culture, language and history dating back to before the Romans. The Basques are nationalists on another level hombre.
You're living in a dream world, Neo
Good reference. I like that you had the time to think of your favorite movie ("it's us against the machines"... yeah sounds like a movie you'd like) while criticizing my post.
Were you living in Barcelona when locals protested in one of the biggest demonstrations in their history for more autonomy in Spain?...This was the lead slogan Som una nació. Nosaltres decidim (We are a nation, we decide)
And how big a percentage did that protest make out of the total population of Barcelona?
LL ,
Are you familiar with the solidarity campaign of Plaça de Catalunya ? Please do some research work before posting . 94.7% people were involved during the campaign last year and voted for the independence of Catalunya .
It was covered by BBC , CNN , Ny times , Wpost , Guardian and what not . It gets a worldwide viewership each year and considerable the most important event of that time.
Spanish authority declarations against Catalan demonstrations : "This revolution must have no flag and no nation. It is for the sake of people and against this wild capitalism without morals and the worst corruption; and none of these concepts have a flag.It is not the moment now to divide, but to unify forces; the last working class revolution failed because of nationalisms”; “What is this shit called Catalan revolution? No division in the movement now. All at once, altogether! Spanish Revolution!”.
Sounds like you've been listening to some Falangistas, who are a vocal minority.
And there were riots against Catalans . Police crushed them in a ruthless manner and it will again happen this year also.
But the police here are Catalan and wear Catalan police uniforms. Are you saying Catalan police crushed Catalans?
Fiscal deficit is almost 5.3% of GDP as estimated for this year . The problems are much more complex. EU forecasted figures are higher than the ones foreseen by the inefficient Spanish administration.This Spanish government keeps on oppressing PIMES in and around Barcelona and the fiscal position is much more complex now. And Spainish government/parties like PP based in Madrid takes pure advantage of it .Companies and real estate bunches have decided to move their based from Barcelona to Madrid and they are opening minor to major offices in Madrid to benefit from the Madrid fiscal conditions and they are even moving abroad . Spanish government is doing everything to economically weaken Barcelona so that the desire and movement for independent state dries down . They have ordered 10% Budget cut for Catalunya and its the second year in a row that they are doing it . Last year , The Vice-President of Economy from the Spanish government, Elena Salgado declared that their administration has no legal obligation now to pay the 1.450 milion Euros agreed funds for competitiveness to Catalunya. According to her, this amount of money is not to be payable until the end of 2013. Salgado also declared that they are not even sure about the accurate figures, so when the time comes, they will see the exact amount of money for these funds. However, the approved new ESTATUT of Catalonia, that was approved on 2010 also by the Spanish parliament, includes a clause that funds for ensuring market competitiveness are to be paid to Catalan government on a yearly basis.
This way Spanish government is taking away the Capital from Barcelona and diminishing the economical catalan power of the state , just to make it weaker .In the meantime the government policies and bankers go on squeezing people, while the Spanish administration continues to generate more unemployment .
The most economically powerful regions get hit the hardest? Where would you get most of your budget cuts from? Andalucia or other parts of Spain which have little economic power? That being said I can agree with you that it isn't all fair but there's a tiny measure of truth in there (I said tiny, FCBarca... I did not say the amount was correct).
You are mistaken when you say catalan people wants to stay under Spanish government rule or inside Spain . That is not the case. It is some of the selfish catalan politicians who wants to stay under Spanish government merely because of the funding they get from the Spanish government and there is much corruption . People of Catalunya wants definite solution and over the years have been voting for the independence of Catalunya for a long time now.
Last year there was also an official voting for the cause . Catalan people were asked to vote for the non-official referendum that are taking place in all municipalities along Catalan territory since 2009. The results were hugely positive for the creation of an independent Catalan state.
You are mistaking and you're not listening to what I've been saying. I'm not saying Catalanism doesn't exist. I'm not saying Catalunya won't become an independent country. I'm not saying that there aren't plenty of Catalans who want to be independent.
What I'm saying is that it's not as a black and white as people on these forums think. I'm saying people are more split about it down here than you think they are. I'm saying there are also a lot who really don't mind the current status quo of being part of Spain.
89.7 % (estimated) people voted for the creation of an independent Catalan state . And you are saying something totally different things LL which doesn't match with ground realities. With all due respect mate , just do some more research work .
Research done from abroad on your computer does not give you anything but numbers and statistics. Numbers and statistics lie. You have to get whiff of the atmosphere and you have to question polls. Seeing everything from one side does not grant you a neutral viewpoint. You must see things from both sides before you can make your judgement.
At this day , Catalan Parliament is continuously working for an effective policy that will suggest what actions should be taken to declare the state an independent Catalan state during the next 2 years.
I don't doubt it. I've never denied that independence weren't an option or whether it could happen. The people I've talked to down here say the same. It could happen. It might happen. But fact is that you shake your fist at me for claiming that "all Catalans don't want to become independent" (which I haven't said) but you yourself say "You are mistaken when you say catalan people wants to stay under Spanish government rule or inside Spain" which is just as erroneous as that which you claim I've said.
My point in this whole argument is this:
Some want to become independent. Some want to stay part of Spain.. The Catalans are a big group. They can take care of themselves. They don't need any help. If independence is going to come then it's going to come from them.
