2012 CdR Final: Athletic Club - FC Barcelona 0-3

[La LL]

You need to calm down FCBarca.

Autonomous regions of Spain have real issues within Spain, that's not an opinion, it's fact

Real issues? It's mostly economical here. Catalunya doesn't want to pay for roads in Andalucia and that's understandable. In return the central government brands them arrogant and selfish. Smaller politicians in other parts of Spain gain influence by exaggerating the whole thing, attacking the Catalans for this and that and separatists do the same here. Catalan culture is in no danger of being wiped out. It's economics.

Congratulations, I'm not Basque or Catalan...nor am I Palestinian, nor was I a Bosnian, Chechen, etc. yet that doesn't translate to not having a right to weigh in on a topic...That kind of ludicrous logic is precisely at the root of problems of like these

You're actually comparing Catalans and Basques to Palestinians? A people that have lost their homelands? To Bosnians? A people that have been victim of genocide? To the brutal clamping down on Chechens by Putin? That's as ludicrous as it can possibly get. Just how oppressed do you think the Catalans are? The graver the issues, the better you can understand it and the better you can form an opinion about it. This isn't a grave issue.

Well, I can see that your train of thought quickly degenerates into an enlightened discussion of violence & ignorance but that's not really adding to the discussion...Don't talk about it or you'll get smacked?...Are you a teenager?

Where could you see that? I said you'd get shut up and put in place. I didn't say physically. You can be shut up and be put in place with words, no? And no, I'm in my mid-twenties.

Yet you're going to weigh in after blasting others for not knowing?

I laid out for you what I've been told. I have no real opinion on the matter. I came down here thinking it was all black and white. Now I'm so confused about this whole ordeal that I've decided to put it aside. When you stop applying politics to everything then you start seeing the little things that matter.

This constitutes what exactly?...Wasn't the premise that her comments reflected mainstream politics?...BTW, how would the same people in Barcelona take to having an Ultras protest like the Falange rescheduled for the night of their club's Final AND to have Aguirre incite with her rhetoric?...I suspect fewer would support the PP...The avalanche of criticism that ensued Aguirre's remarks would suggest she indeed was foolishly inciting trouble

What are you trying to say here? What would the Catalans who vote PP do if the separatists held a protest here? What?

So what's your point?...That Catalans are already fading out of existence through ethnic mixing so less people should care or feel offended?...That's not a position of strength to argue from, it's a retreat into spin

Wow. I'm totally at a loss of words for this one. So one of your Catalan friends are probably of mixed origin, say one of them has a grandfather who is from Madrid. Should he/she hate his/her granddad for falling in love with his/her Catalan grandmother? Are Catalans being ethnically wiped out by nefarious means? I'm trying to tell you that plenty of people also feel Spanish as well as Catalan. If your father is French and your mother Swedish, would you not love both? Both of their countries? Sure, you feel closer to the place where you grew up but that doesn't change your overall sentiment.

Congratulations, most Catalans I know take considerable pride in who they are and resent Madrid and it's politics...And while currently still within the borders of Spain, they don't consider themselves Spanish

Yeah, they're proud of their Catalan culture. Yeah, they're not all fond of Madrid. That doesn't change the fact that they also feel Spanish.

 

[DucdeOrléans]

Well Spanish is not an ethnicity per se. It's more a nationality than anything else - like American, Canadian, Australian etc is.

Spain as a country has only existed since 1516 where it became a Kingdom and that was more a result of the Reconquista period ultimately uniting the various Kingdoms, duchies and counties on the Iberian Peninsula (all closely related in terms of culture, language and even genetics apart from the Basque people who only fit in the latter category (genetics) which the Habsburg monarchs took advantage of.

Even today Spain have clear traits of federalism in the form of the various autonomous regions - one of them being Catalonia. Just like it was when the territory of Spain was divived into seperate states who although independent were closely tied in terms of culture, language and virtually anything else of importance.

Not to mention the actual interaction that took place at that time also which further united the various peoples.

I understand the seperatist movements in Spain (mainly the Basque Country, Galicia and Catalonia) but I don't think that jeering the national anthem and the head of state during a football competition is the right way to manifest the two independence movements.

 

[La Furia]

When most people say "Spanish" in regards to an ethnicity or culture or whatever I assume they are talking about Castile.

I mean hell, people still call the Spanish language it's proper name "Castellano" even outside of Spain. In Argentina they call it Castellano more than Español.

 

[La LL]

Yeah of course I mean Castillian.

Also, FCBarca seems to think this whole ordeal is a huge problem. It's not. I'll tell you what the problem is in all of Spain right now: One big bad crisis the like of which has not hit the country in decades and which puts a damper on all the hopes of the people, be they Spanish, Catalan, Galician or Basque. This crisis is all that matters now for the people of Spain or rather, how to weather it. Because it's not likely to go away soon and people are starting to fear about the near future in 2-3 years.

 

[Deco 20]

When most people say "Spanish" in regards to an ethnicity or culture or whatever I assume they are talking about Castile.

I mean hell, people still call the Spanish language it's proper name "Castellano" even outside of Spain. In Argentina they call it Castellano more than Español.

I've been taught to use "Castellano"... But both mean the exact same thing

 

[La Furia]

Yeah of course I mean Castillian.

Also, FCBarca seems to think this whole ordeal is a huge problem. It's not. I'll tell you what the problem is in all of Spain right now: One big bad crisis the like of which has not hit the country in decades and which puts a damper on all the hopes of the people, be they Spanish, Catalan, Galician or Basque. This crisis is all that matters now for the people of Spain or rather, how to weather it. Because it's not likely to go away soon and people are starting to fear about the near future in 2-3 years.

Exactly. If the big, bad government in Madrid is a problem right now it has more to do with the kind of people who have been running the show than what ethnicity they are.

I've been taught to use "Castellano"... But both mean the exact same thing

They do but it's a cultural thing.

Like in Chile, Argentina and Peru most Spanish immigration came from Galicia and the Basque Country and it has impacted the language including the use of the term, whereas in say, Mexico and Colombia, there is much more of an Andalucian and Extramaduran tradition where it's interchangable and the more general "Español" is preferred. Another reason bullfighting still exists in Mexico and Colombia but not in the Southern Cone.

Like I have to use "español" for convenience since here in America most people will look at you stupid or think you are a condescending twat if you use "castellano", though academically I prefer the latter especially as I read a lot about Argentina and Spain.

 

[La LL]

Exactly. If the big, bad government in Madrid is a problem right now it has more to do with the kind of people who have been running the show than what ethnicity they are.

The anger is mostly about the central government's budget cuts these days with almost weekly protests. I think there was a teachers protest one of these days and last week I stumbled into a huge protest down by Placa Catalunya.

 

[DucdeOrléans]

Yeah of course I mean Castillian.

Also, FCBarca seems to think this whole ordeal is a huge problem. It's not. I'll tell you what the problem is in all of Spain right now: One big bad crisis the like of which has not hit the country in decades and which puts a damper on all the hopes of the people, be they Spanish, Catalan, Galician or Basque. This crisis is all that matters now for the people of Spain or rather, how to weather it. Because it's not likely to go away soon and people are starting to fear about the near future in 2-3 years.

Exactly.

La Furia:

Correct. The "Spanish" part of my family is also Castillian rather than let's say Basque. But from my knowledge a lot of Spanish family names have obscure origins so it is difficult to determine where common surnames such as Martínez and Hernández really are from in Spain. The majority of the nobles/rulling families and other influential families choose to identify as Castillian and that was the main reason why Castillian became the dominant language in Spain and not Galician for example.

The same happened in virtually all other European countries former and present.

But this whole discussion is rather strange. FCB play in La Liga which is a Spanish competition and so is the Copa Del Rey. I am curious to see if FCB - should Catalonia become independent in the future, would compete in the "Spanish" league or in the regional Catalan leagues....So I am not even so sure that FCB would benefit from an indenpendent Catalonia at all. I am merely seeing this from a football perspective since nobody here is Basque nor Catalan (apart from Corb) and mixing politics and sport is a bad idea although it is nearly impossible not to do so.

 

[Deco 20]

Real issues? It's mostly economical here. Catalunya doesn't want to pay for roads in Andalucia and that's understandable.

But they're very nice. The best roads I've ever seen, in fact. America, Germany, Sweden... They've got nothing on Andalucian roads

 

[La LL]

But they're very nice. The best roads I've ever seen, in fact. America, Germany, Sweden... They've got nothing on Andalucian roads

Catalan roads*

 

[Deco 20]

I am curious to see if FCB - should Catalonia become independent in the future, would compete in the "Spanish" league or in the regional Catalan leagues....

They'd have to play in the Spanish league, for their own sake and for Spanish football in general. They couldn't leave.

They do but it's a cultural thing.

Like in Chile, Argentina and Peru most Spanish immigration came from Galicia and the Basque Country and it has impacted the language including the use of the term, whereas in say, Mexico and Colombia, there is much more of an Andalucian and Extramaduran tradition where it's interchangable and the more general "Español" is preferred. Another reason bullfighting still exists in Mexico and Colombia but not in the Southern Cone.

Like I have to use "español" for convenience since here in America most people will look at you stupid or think you are a condescending twat if you use "castellano", though academically I prefer the latter especially as I read a lot about Argentina and Spain.

You'd think "español" would be just as bad... I personally think "castellano" sounds better, but sometimes use "español" because it's more similar to Swedish

 

[Deco 20]

Speaking of the spanish regions: Got to love how all other Spaniards look down on Andalucians as lazy bastards

Also: Interesting that it's the Basque Country, Catalunya, Valencia and Galicia who use "castellano". All the most prominent regional languages there

 

[DucdeOrléans]

Deco20:

Actually I think they would not be allowed to play in the Spanish league if Catalonia became an independent country. Or they could do a "Monaco" but it's ties with France are quite different to those an independent Spain would have to an independent Catalonia.

About the roads in Spain:

Is there a region where the roads are not good? I have not seen them yet apart from small country roads near Zaragoza (man that region looks like Nevada - such a barren land)

 

[La LL]

Just to let people know, roads are just one of the things the Catalans don't want to pay for. It's not the cause of the whole ordeal lol.

But Catalunya, as the most economically prosperous nation in Spain, have been paying for a lot of things all over Spain following the transition to democracy. Schools, hospitals and roads etc. The issue lies with the old expression "enough is enough" and in this case, the Catalans would like the other regions to start paying for their own things as they should be more than economically fit to do it by now, in a more federal way.

 

[Deco 20]

Just to let people know, roads are just one of the things the Catalans don't want to pay for. It's not the cause of the whole ordeal lol.

But Catalunya, as the most economically prosperous nation in Spain, have been paying for a lot of things all over Spain following the transition to democracy. Schools, hospitals and roads etc. The issue lies with the old expression "enough is enough" and in this case, the Catalans would like the other regions to start paying for their own things as they should be more than economically fit to do it by now, in a more federal way.

We know, but those roads looked expensive

I heard Catalunya was one of the hardest hit regions, is that true?