6 - Gavi

[JamDav1982]

Talents still at LaMasia or who have left?

Mateu Morey, Adrian Bernabe, Pablo Moreno, Xavi Simons
Robert Navarro, Dani Olmo.

The only one that we ignored and turned out good was Dani Olmo. He would probably be starting for us ahead in of Pedri.

The rest are not better than what we have. Bernabe was super hyped and has good numbers in the City reserves.

Robert Navarro is doing well in Sociedad B team and with a contract up in 2022 could be an option to bring back next year.

And they all left for greener pastures, not being ignored.

Olmo was not ignored. The club wanted to keep him and he decided to leave.

None of those players were ignored. They all decided to move on and money plus promises of promotions regardless of perormance.

 

[Porque]

Olmo was included in the Halilovic deal. We didn't rate him highly at that point in time.

 

[serghei]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017–18_FC_Barcelona_B_season#Players
https://www.transfermarkt.com/fc-barcelona-b/startseite/verein/2464?saison_id=2018
Which La Masia midfielders did he really ignored from this squad?

Honestly, did you rate Mingueza as worthy of being given a chance at Barcelona until Koeman gave him a chance vs Kiev, in CL? I remember there was a game vs Sporting under EV which didn't matter at all in CL. Not even a single Barca B player played I think. It was a dead rubber. No1 spot was secure. Why not put in some Barca B players and see them in a serious game?

EV was never oriented towards giving young players real chances, that's the feeling I got. He used it as a last resort measure. Especially in his first seasons when he wanted to make a name of himself. In the third season he gave more chances, as more injuries happened to key players.

Koeman seems more open to the idea of promoting players. This also helps players improve. It's not all a coincidence, that we now have talent, and back then we only had crap.

 

[JamDav1982]

Honestly, did you rate Mingueza as worthy of being given a chance at Barcelona until Koeman gave him a chance vs Kiev, in CL? I remember there was a game vs Sporting under EV which didn't matter at all in CL. Not even a single Barca B player played I think. It was a dead rubber. No1 spot was secure. Why not put in some kids and see them in a serious game?

EV was never oriented towards giving young players real chances. He used it as a last resort measure.

Why point to Mingueza and not the vast majority of young players in recent years that have been given a chance and not been good enough or the ones you are given in list that have shown since not to be on the level?

It is a strawman argument.

Fati was not ignored and none of those that were crowed about being not given a fair chance from Semedo, Arthur, Malcolm, Alena, Todibo to B team players listed have shown anything to prove wrong on.

 

[serghei]

Why point to Mingueza and not the vast majority of young players in recent years that have been given a chance and not been good enough or the ones you are given in list that have shown since not to be on the level?

It is a strawman argument.

Fati was not ignored and none of those that were crowed about being not given a fair chance from Semedo, Arthur, Malcolm, Alena, Todibo to B team players listed have shown anything to prove wrong on.

Because giving a chance to young players is something you do not only when the players show undeniable talent. With great talents is easy. Others need more work. And you need the proper manager for it. Not likes of EV.

 

[vegitot]

Honestly, did you rate Mingueza as worthy of being given a chance at Barcelona until Koeman gave him a chance vs Kiev, in CL? I remember there was a game vs Sporting under EV which didn't matter at all in CL. Not even a single Barca B player played I think. It was a dead rubber. No1 spot was secure. Why not put in some Barca B players and see them in a serious game?

EV was never oriented towards giving young players real chances, that's the feeling I got. He used it as a last resort measure. Especially in his first seasons when he wanted to make a name of himself. In the third season he gave more chances, as more injuries happened to key players.

Koeman seems more open to the idea of promoting players. This also helps players improve. It's not all a coincidence, that we now have talent, and back then we only had crap.

Pedri, new comer, not from Masia.
Dest, new comer, not from Masia.
Fati, actually promoted by EV, Masia.
Araujo, keeped by EV instead of Tobido.
Minguenza, from Masia, promoted by Koeman.

Only Minguenza is from Masia that is new this season. Fati and Araujo are already known under EV. Pedri and Dest are new comer.

Not different. Just accept that Masia's players in last few years are not good enough for top football level.

And the expection for Valverde and Koeman are different. One was fight for tittles, one is in rebuild phase.

 

[JamDav1982]

Because giving a chance to young players is something you do not only when the players show undeniable talent. With great talents is easy. Others need more work. And you need the proper manager for it. Not likes of EV.

No.. as Koeman said today. The young players are getting a chance not to please supporters but because they deserve it.

Your argument basically boils down to 'I cant name anyone who he didnt give enough chances to but there must be someone in B team who would have surprised if given the chance'.

First good young player in Fati was given chances.

No Barca coach will ever just call up players to give them time and hope they develop. They have to earn it and be what coach requires in the team.

 

[serghei]

Pedri, new comer, not from Masia.
Dest, new comer, not from Masia.
Fati, actually promoted by EV, Masia.
Araujo, keeped by EV instead of Tobido.
Minguenza, from Masia, promoted by Koeman.

Only Minguenza is from Masia that is new this season. Fati and Araujo are already known under EV. Pedri and Dest are new comer.

Not different. Just accept that Masia's players in last few years are not good enough for top football level.

And the expection for Valverde and Koeman are different. One was fight for tittles, one is in rebuild phase.

Ilaix is not from La Masia?

 

[vegitot]

Because giving a chance to young players is something you do not only when the players show undeniable talent. With great talents is easy. Others need more work. And you need the proper manager for it. Not likes of EV.

And team like Barca wants great talent, not mediocre talent to move forward. EV was not a man for developing mediocre talent, true but also he didn't have time to do it. You can not keep winning tittles while developing mediocre talents at the same time.

Ilaix is not from La Masia?

Oh forget him. Though it is too early. Alena, Gomes, Denis also got decent minutes under EV as well.

 

[serghei]

And team like Barca wants great talent, not mediocre talent to move forward. EV was not a man for developing mediocre talent, true but also he didn't have time to do it. You can not keep winning tittles while developing mediocre talents at the same time.

Mingueza is not mediocre talent. He is good talent, but a player you need an eye to promote. If the manager lacks that instinct, only the very best, undeniable talents, get promoted under that manager. Other good but not outstanding talents get lost.

You need to take chances to promote players. Or hope you stuck gold and some gem lands in your lap (potentially Fati case).

 

[khaled_a_d]

Honestly, did you rate Mingueza as worthy of being given a chance at Barcelona until Koeman gave him a chance vs Kiev, in CL? I remember there was a game vs Sporting under EV which didn't matter at all in CL. Not even a single Barca B player played I think. It was a dead rubber. No1 spot was secure. Why not put in some kids and see them in a serious game?

EV was never oriented towards giving young players real chances. He used it as a last resort measure.

1- You are asking the wrong guy, because till the moment I don't think Minqueza deserves to be Barca 1st team player. He is here due to crisis and I would hope some Liga team will offer us 8-10M for him next summer and we move on from him.

2-You still didn't answer the question, you claim he ignored talents for veterans, but which talent? Because is honestly a ridiculous claim in vacuum,
Because basing it on "there could be someone there who could have been developed" is ridiculous. Maybe there is someone now? Maybe there was someone who Pep ignored during his time? Hey maybe Gai Assulin could have became the next great winger if Pep trusted him. Poor kid, Pep destroyed his career .

3-If you want to make EV the devil who hated youth player, fine. I am not arguing whether EV was a youth oriented coach or not, but actually about the state of La Masia back then.
Those B teams were piss poor, with coach who was there in hope to get results in order to get a better job in Liga, like Pep,Lucho & Eusebio. The state of the B team was a mess between 2014-2018.
The goal wasn't to develop young talents, it was to get results and get to compete in Segunda, so fans can watch it on youtube and we claim La Masia is great because B team is freakin winning.
How any first team coach would look at that team and even find worthy player in that?

Did Carles Alena ever learned to be a CM with B team? Because every time I watched him, he was one of the most advanced player on the pitch, hoping to get the ball in attacking position in order to start running with it.
Even before EV time, has any La Masia or B team coach has told Samper that he needs to be classical DM or even CM, rather than an old fashioned deep lying playmaker?
Anyone tried to get into Adama's head and told him to raise his head while playing? I could go own on on those examples.
Even your boy Puig, has only stared to develop when Pimenta took over and we had a more stable team developing players, the results only started to occur by last year, when Araujo,Perez was doing well there, same with Oscar.

4-So regarding Mingueza, even if you think "he has future here" this would have not happened if he was couple of years older, because we would have failed to develop him and shipped his ass to a segunda team.

I love Koemann work with young players now, but ignoring the difference in the state of the youth system back then and now is actually unjustified, and don't do justice to guys like Pimenta

 

[JamDav1982]

Mingueza is not mediocre talent. He is good talent, but a player you need an eye to promote. If the manager lacks that instinct, only the very best, undeniable talents, get promoted under that manager. Other good but not outstanding talents get lost.

You need to take chances to promote players. Or hope you stuck gold and some gem lands in your lap (potentially Fati case).

In reality Koeman did not go and hand pick Mingueza as a gem from B team. Barca had an injury crisis and Mingueza most experienced and physically ready of B team defenders got the chance. From there he performed well and got more chances.

Difference is with other players that played under EV they didnt perform well enough and were not repeatedly given chances. The young players have to take their opportunities at any given time.

Not sure why you ignore Alena promotion when he played close to 30 games for Barca in 18/19 etc either.

 

[Joan]

@khaled, some great posts tonight

 

[vegitot]

Mingueza is not mediocre talent. He is good talent, but a player you need an eye to promote. If the manager lacks that instinct, only the very best, undeniable talents, get promoted under that manager. Other good but not outstanding talents get lost.

You need to take chances to promote players. Or hope you stuck gold and some gem lands in your lap (potentially Fati case).

If Pique is healthy, Minguenza probably stays in B team honestly.
Young talents need to prove their worth as well, not just wait for coach pick them up. Fati showed his talent, Araujo showed his talent. Then you have Samper, Alena, Gomes, Denis... All get chances in the first team but fail to meet the expection.
Team like Barca wants results, just like Pep said recently that there is no such thing called project, either you win or lose. EV's job at Barca was win the tittle, not rebuild the team like current Koeman (though he is still thrashed everytime he loses).

And Masia's players in past few years are quite mediocre. Thing can change this season but will not change that fact.

 

[serghei]

[MENTION=11668]khaled_a_d[/MENTION], I see your point, I don't watch much La Masia, and I know you do. If you say there's a clear gap of quality in favor of now, compared to even 1.5 years ago, I'll take your word for it. Cheers.

My argument started from the fact that it seems odd and convenient that just when we have to rebuild, some players show talent. It just seems hard to believe. It seems like a freak coincidence, which got me wondering, but maybe it is just that, a coincidence.