7 - Philippe Coutinho - V1

[Calidad]

We know that with most managers not named Valverde, he would play in a midfield three. I still think it’s his best position, but it looks like EV has decided that only ONE of Coutinho + Dembele can start for some reason.

 

[Andresito]

I wonder what would've happened if Griezmann had been signed.

Valverde probably would've been forced to play Coutinho in midfield even if he's reluctant to do so now.

 

[Saladin]

We know that with most managers not named Valverde, he would play in a midfield three. I still think it’s his best position, but it looks like EV has decided that only ONE of Coutinho + Dembele can start for some reason.

Coutinho has zero defensive output/capabilities in order for him to be considered a midfield starter/regular for us.

He is a somewhat flashy player who had a good run in the PrL in an inconsistent number of games/periods. He had 4-5 good games interrupted by an injury, came back for 4-6 decent to good games and then out again. He had one good and one great season at Liverpool, who allowed him room on the counter, where the whole team was built around him; he was catered for in Liverpool, teammates like Milner, Henderson, Can did the running/defensive pressing for him. He isn't afforded that luxury here.

 

[PhilS]

We cant have a player for 150 m as a back-up player.

If you're going to make an omelet, you have to break some eggs. This is a very rich team, some very expensive acquisitions will work out better than others.

Why is there not more talk about the amazing bargains Barca got buying Lenglet and Arthur? Before that, Rakitic and Umtitti were also major steals.

I still think that Coutinho will carry this team, sooner or later. If not, then if he can just be as good as he was last game, that would be fine.

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

Isn't one of the problem, that he likes the same space as Messi or the role. He can't do that with Barca because Messi is the GOAT.

 

[Havesaks]

If you're going to make an omelet, you have to break some eggs. This is a very rich team, some very expensive acquisitions will work out better than others.

Why is there not more talk about the amazing bargains Barca got buying Lenglet and Arthur? Before that, Rakitic and Umtitti were also major steals.

I still think that Coutinho will carry this team, sooner or later. If not, then if he can just be as good as he was last game, that would be fine.

Thats a fair point of view, but you can be critical for one transfer and still be overall satisfied. And personally i am. I do agree, that there doesnt have to be a rigid functional correlation between price and quality, thats impossible and wouldnt make sense, but in Coutinhos case, 155m getting an astronomous salary... right now he is just to far off. Right now his playing time is only that "high", because Dembele had some injuries, in theory he is Dembeles back-up. And when he still is marketable in PL an playing without any visible improvement, i do think its worth considering to off-load him in favor of making more use of the money. Anyway, there are several factos to be considered 1) coutinhos willingness to fight for it 2) valverdes formation(s) and willingness to use him in midfield 3) price 4) alternatives to coutinho. top of my head.

Right now he is the worst transfer barca has ever done in my time as as a fan (2007).

 

[El Flaco]

I am a Liverpool supporter. But I have been a Barcelona follower/supporter as my second team for years. I remember when coutinho and Sturridge joined Liverpool in January 2013. We already had Suarez, but alone he hadn't yet influenced the team as much he did the following season.(in 2013/14 Suarez was one of the best individuals I'd ever seen on a football pitch, the way he completely dominated the whole game, involved in everything. The movement, unpredictablity and sudden shifts in pressing alone were incredible to watch live. He actually never reached that height again in my opinion. Still a joy to watch, he became more of a finisher at Barcelona as he hasn't been as free to lead and do what he wants in Barca's style of play).

Back to Coutinho; the Liverpool matches in 2012/13 were quite boring to watch, until he came when he was around 20. Every match he would play the most amazing through balls to sturridge. It transformed the team. But this was in a team with possession closer to 50%, with more counter attacks and where coutinho had space. Similarly, in the fast paced Brendan Rogers teams he had space on the counter attacks. This was when he was almost at his best. He was great at tackling in his own half, and starting off counter attacks. He later produced a lot of unbelievable moments of magic that only top players can, and he still can now.

In the end of Rogers/early Klopp period he was just as good on the counter attacks, but now he had developed the ability to be the reliable man, not only on counter attacks/fast paced football, but also when the team had all the ball and the opposition defended deep. When the team needed a goal against weaker teams, he'd either score or be the creative player who played short passes till a chance was created.

However, even this wasn't slower, controlled football. He was the player who would speed things up. He only ever knew one tempo. Maybe he played too much Futsal when he was younger. But this was fine at Liverpool. (But actually, now maybe the balance klopp wants in the team is better without him.) But at Barca, it certainly doesn't work. When Barcelona were first looking at him, I thought he'd be a good addition due to his touch and short pass and move ability.

But whilst they were signing him, I watched a highlight compilation of his and realised just how jittery he is on the ball, nothing like iniesta. He's not a calm player; he has to be constantly at 100% in order to create something, or just to receive the ball. I thought he'd dazzle the crowd sometimes with Messi, but he'd fail to keep calm and in position.

At Barca, control of the position is huge. What Coutinho does without realising is he makes everyone play quicker, when in fact tempo change is what's important to score goals. Coming down from his tempo, this becomes harder. It removes the unpredictability.

When you watch him receive the ball at Barca he has to take a few touches whilst his teammates take one. When Busquests, Arthur, Jordi Alba pass along the ground smoothly in triangles, he upsets the rhythm by stopping the ball dead, looking up, in which time the oppposition has closed gaps. He can't return the ball first time with pace unless he passes and moves with momentum, again not calm. Even Dembele and Suarez have more calmness on the ball.

In terms of natural position Coutinho is an Isco type of player who plays in between the lines and quickens the pace with short passes(or long passes when there's space). If you notice at Madrid, when Isco comes on he dominates/dictates the play as the number 10. But you can't have 2 number 10's in the same team. At Barcelona there's only one number 10 and that's Messi. This was the most annoying thing when Coutinho first joined Barca.

The problem with Coutinho is not only that he's under-confident. It's that-as many have said- he simply doesn't fit in positionally. In his first 6 months last year, he was running into Messi all the time. He still does, now he bumps into everyone, but on the left side of the pitch. Also, Messi becomes much less creative when Coutinho was/is creating.

When Coutinho was more confident last year he always looked for the ball which meant he got in Messi's way, only to receive it and lose the ball in his new, tighter surroundings. It's still the same, it's just he's lost the confidence to look for the ball, which means he hides, which further lowers his confidence, to the point where he doesn't even press opponents with enthusiasm, and it's a viscous cycle.

These naturally gifted number 10s like Coutinho and Isco do have good awareness, but their focus is to see gaps and get into space themselves to receive the ball and make an impact, whereas midfielders' awareness is on the whole pitch whilst staying put eg Kroos/Modric/Rakitic. As long as Messi is in the team, Coutinho shouldn't be. Maybe he could play as a super sub, but he can't play from the start. Or he could be a great player in another team.

Welcome to this forum mate!

 

[FCBfan22]

I am a Liverpool supporter. But I have been a Barcelona follower/supporter as my second team for years. I remember when coutinho and Sturridge joined Liverpool in January 2013. We already had Suarez, but alone he hadn't yet influenced the team as much he did the following season.(in 2013/14 Suarez was one of the best individuals I'd ever seen on a football pitch, the way he completely dominated the whole game, involved in everything. The movement, unpredictablity and sudden shifts in pressing alone were incredible to watch live. He actually never reached that height again in my opinion. Still a joy to watch, he became more of a finisher at Barcelona as he hasn't been as free to lead and do what he wants in Barca's style of play).

Back to Coutinho; the Liverpool matches in 2012/13 were quite boring to watch, until he came when he was around 20. Every match he would play the most amazing through balls to sturridge. It transformed the team. But this was in a team with possession closer to 50%, with more counter attacks and where coutinho had space. Similarly, in the fast paced Brendan Rogers teams he had space on the counter attacks. This was when he was almost at his best. He was great at tackling in his own half, and starting off counter attacks. He later produced a lot of unbelievable moments of magic that only top players can, and he still can now.

In the end of Rogers/early Klopp period he was just as good on the counter attacks, but now he had developed the ability to be the reliable man, not only on counter attacks/fast paced football, but also when the team had all the ball and the opposition defended deep. When the team needed a goal against weaker teams, he'd either score or be the creative player who played short passes till a chance was created.

However, even this wasn't slower, controlled football. He was the player who would speed things up. He only ever knew one tempo. Maybe he played too much Futsal when he was younger. But this was fine at Liverpool. (But actually, now maybe the balance klopp wants in the team is better without him.) But at Barca, it certainly doesn't work. When Barcelona were first looking at him, I thought he'd be a good addition due to his touch and short pass and move ability.

But whilst they were signing him, I watched a highlight compilation of his and realised just how jittery he is on the ball, nothing like iniesta. He's not a calm player; he has to be constantly at 100% in order to create something, or just to receive the ball. I thought he'd dazzle the crowd sometimes with Messi, but he'd fail to keep calm and in position.

At Barca, control of the position is huge. What Coutinho does without realising is he makes everyone play quicker, when in fact tempo change is what's important to score goals. Coming down from his tempo, this becomes harder. It removes the unpredictability.

When you watch him receive the ball at Barca he has to take a few touches whilst his teammates take one. When Busquests, Arthur, Jordi Alba pass along the ground smoothly in triangles, he upsets the rhythm by stopping the ball dead, looking up, in which time the oppposition has closed gaps. He can't return the ball first time with pace unless he passes and moves with momentum, again not calm. Even Dembele and Suarez have more calmness on the ball.

In terms of natural position Coutinho is an Isco type of player who plays in between the lines and quickens the pace with short passes(or long passes when there's space). If you notice at Madrid, when Isco comes on he dominates/dictates the play as the number 10. But you can't have 2 number 10's in the same team. At Barcelona there's only one number 10 and that's Messi. This was the most annoying thing when Coutinho first joined Barca.

The problem with Coutinho is not only that he's under-confident. It's that-as many have said- he simply doesn't fit in positionally. In his first 6 months last year, he was running into Messi all the time. He still does, now he bumps into everyone, but on the left side of the pitch. Also, Messi becomes much less creative when Coutinho was/is creating.

When Coutinho was more confident last year he always looked for the ball which meant he got in Messi's way, only to receive it and lose the ball in his new, tighter surroundings. It's still the same, it's just he's lost the confidence to look for the ball, which means he hides, which further lowers his confidence, to the point where he doesn't even press opponents with enthusiasm, and it's a viscous cycle.

These naturally gifted number 10s like Coutinho and Isco do have good awareness, but their focus is to see gaps and get into space themselves to receive the ball and make an impact, whereas midfielders' awareness is on the whole pitch whilst staying put eg Kroos/Modric/Rakitic. As long as Messi is in the team, Coutinho shouldn't be. Maybe he could play as a super sub, but he can't play from the start. Or he could be a great player in another team.

This is quality indeed.

 

[JerseyAddict]

[MENTION=23692]Messi_789[/MENTION]

Great quality post. Thank you.

 

[Vilarrubi]

I am a Liverpool supporter. But I have been a Barcelona follower/supporter as my second team for years. I remember when coutinho and Sturridge joined Liverpool in January 2013. We already had Suarez, but alone he hadn't yet influenced the team as much he did the following season.(in 2013/14 Suarez was one of the best individuals I'd ever seen on a football pitch, the way he completely dominated the whole game, involved in everything. The movement, unpredictablity and sudden shifts in pressing alone were incredible to watch live. He actually never reached that height again in my opinion. Still a joy to watch, he became more of a finisher at Barcelona as he hasn't been as free to lead and do what he wants in Barca's style of play).

Back to Coutinho; the Liverpool matches in 2012/13 were quite boring to watch, until he came when he was around 20. Every match he would play the most amazing through balls to sturridge. It transformed the team. But this was in a team with possession closer to 50%, with more counter attacks and where coutinho had space. Similarly, in the fast paced Brendan Rogers teams he had space on the counter attacks. This was when he was almost at his best. He was great at tackling in his own half, and starting off counter attacks. He later produced a lot of unbelievable moments of magic that only top players can, and he still can now.

In the end of Rogers/early Klopp period he was just as good on the counter attacks, but now he had developed the ability to be the reliable man, not only on counter attacks/fast paced football, but also when the team had all the ball and the opposition defended deep. When the team needed a goal against weaker teams, he'd either score or be the creative player who played short passes till a chance was created.

However, even this wasn't slower, controlled football. He was the player who would speed things up. He only ever knew one tempo. Maybe he played too much Futsal when he was younger. But this was fine at Liverpool. (But actually, now maybe the balance klopp wants in the team is better without him.) But at Barca, it certainly doesn't work. When Barcelona were first looking at him, I thought he'd be a good addition due to his touch and short pass and move ability.

But whilst they were signing him, I watched a highlight compilation of his and realised just how jittery he is on the ball, nothing like iniesta. He's not a calm player; he has to be constantly at 100% in order to create something, or just to receive the ball. I thought he'd dazzle the crowd sometimes with Messi, but he'd fail to keep calm and in position.

At Barca, control of the position is huge. What Coutinho does without realising is he makes everyone play quicker, when in fact tempo change is what's important to score goals. Coming down from his tempo, this becomes harder. It removes the unpredictability.

When you watch him receive the ball at Barca he has to take a few touches whilst his teammates take one. When Busquests, Arthur, Jordi Alba pass along the ground smoothly in triangles, he upsets the rhythm by stopping the ball dead, looking up, in which time the oppposition has closed gaps. He can't return the ball first time with pace unless he passes and moves with momentum, again not calm. Even Dembele and Suarez have more calmness on the ball.

In terms of natural position Coutinho is an Isco type of player who plays in between the lines and quickens the pace with short passes(or long passes when there's space). If you notice at Madrid, when Isco comes on he dominates/dictates the play as the number 10. But you can't have 2 number 10's in the same team. At Barcelona there's only one number 10 and that's Messi. This was the most annoying thing when Coutinho first joined Barca.

The problem with Coutinho is not only that he's under-confident. It's that-as many have said- he simply doesn't fit in positionally. In his first 6 months last year, he was running into Messi all the time. He still does, now he bumps into everyone, but on the left side of the pitch. Also, Messi becomes much less creative when Coutinho was/is creating.

When Coutinho was more confident last year he always looked for the ball which meant he got in Messi's way, only to receive it and lose the ball in his new, tighter surroundings. It's still the same, it's just he's lost the confidence to look for the ball, which means he hides, which further lowers his confidence, to the point where he doesn't even press opponents with enthusiasm, and it's a viscous cycle.

These naturally gifted number 10s like Coutinho and Isco do have good awareness, but their focus is to see gaps and get into space themselves to receive the ball and make an impact, whereas midfielders' awareness is on the whole pitch whilst staying put eg Kroos/Modric/Rakitic. As long as Messi is in the team, Coutinho shouldn't be. Maybe he could play as a super sub, but he can't play from the start. Or he could be a great player in another team.

Quality post. Coutinho was in my top 3 fav players in the PL while he was there.. sad to see him not up to his usual standards.

 

[RIZALDINHO]

he is a flop barca wasted 142m on him we should sell him in the summer so we can try to get some of the money back

 

[Arizona Scott]

PhilS and Messi789, I agree and well thought out posts. I just couldn't leave the last stinker of a ill formed thought be there hanging.

Fees go in and out, some a bargain, some not. When you think of it as Dembele + Coutinho - 33K = Neymar. Not so bad. Who thinks
we would be better now and long term with Neymar instead of both Demebele and Coutinho. Not me and even before thinking through Neymar's injury.

You want more than 11 world class for a squad. If we can get the Coutinho of last spring he is well worth it as a part time starter/sub who can change the complexion of the game.

 

[Havesaks]

PhilS and Messi789, I agree and well thought out posts. I just couldn't leave the last stinker of a ill formed thought be there hanging.

Fees go in and out, some a bargain, some not. When you think of it as Dembele + Coutinho - 33K = Neymar. Not so bad. Who thinks
we would be better now and long term with Neymar instead of both Demebele and Coutinho. Not me and even before thinking through Neymar's injury.

You want more than 11 world class for a squad. If we can get the Coutinho of last spring he is well worth it as a part time starter/sub who can change the complexion of the game.

The equation is wrong. Dembele has 40m bonusses which most likely will be activated.

Coutinho is as it stands now a huge flop

The only reason he isnt haunted down by The media, is because we win games and because he obviously is fail casted

 

[Arizona Scott]

The equation is wrong. Dembele has 40m bonusses which most likely will be activated.

Coutinho is as it stands now a huge flop

The only reason he isnt haunted down by The media, is because we win games and because he obviously is fail casted

Well the equation is from transfermarket, yes they don't always gave bonus. Coutinho this year has been hugely dissappointing, yes. Last year he was our 2nd best player in the spring. I think it is probably best to sell and we could recoup most of it, but 1.5 years with some moments of outstanding play too soon to be a flop.

But the larger point is you have to look at all buys--this year Malcom, Leglet, Arthur of note, last year Coutinho, Dembele, Paulinho, Semedo, Deulofeu & Mina.

Some we made a little money off of, some our great buys of long term fixtures (Lenglet, Arthur). Some looks like good buys (Semedo, Dembele). And only two do date look like overpays, Coutinho and Malcom.

I wouldn't say at all Coutinho isn't being criticized by the media and fans. He actually hasn't been as bad as many think in his overall game and link up play--it is just the difference between Dembele and anyone else paired with Messi and Suarez is so stark. He doesn't round out the squad and compliment our overall slowness anywhere near Dembele--not that anyone else on the roster does either and it usually Dembele vs Coutinho that becomes the focus of the contrast even though they are quite different players and styles.

 

[Havesaks]

Well the equation is from transfermarket, yes they don't always gave bonus. Coutinho this year has been hugely dissappointing, yes. Last yoear he was our 2nd best player in the spring. I think it is probably best to sell and we could recoup most of it, but 1.5 years with some moments of outstanding play too soon to be a flop.

But the larger point is you have to look at all buys--this year Malcom, Leglet, Arthur of note, last year Coutinho, Dembele, Paulinho, Semedo, Deulofeu & Mina.

Some we made a little money off of, some our great buys of long term fixtures (Lenglet, Arthur). Some looks like good buys (Semedo, Dembele). And only two do date look like overpays, Coutinho and Malcom.

I wouldn't say at all Coutinho isn't being criticized by the media and fans. He actually hasn't been as bad as many think in his overall game and link up play--it is just the difference between Dembele and anyone else paired with Messi and Suarez is so stark. He doesn't round out the squad and compliment our overall slowness anywhere near Dembele--not that anyone else on the roster does either and it usually Dembele vs Coutinho that becomes the focus of the contrast even though they are quite different players and styles.

He was good the first half year, but I dont care really, because he didnt contribute to any titles - we would have won both copa del rey and la liga without him. Were he really could have done a difference was champions league, but he couldnt play. Such a pain the rule first changed this season. I dont blame coutinho, he was failcasted, isnt a winger and is no midfielder in 4-3-3. At least not with The players we have at our disposal. So yes you are right its not his fault, but that doesnt mean that he isnt a flop. And that he is. If we can get 100m for him, we would have lost 60 + wages for no big contribution in the span of 18 months. Thats Zlatan-bad. Maybe worse.

Well yeah thats right. But compared to how the Spanish media normally is, i think he can consider him lucky. just imagine bad results and no dembele-controversies. He would be haunted so bad, i just feel bad thinking about it.

Anyway, just read on a danish barca news site, that The club does consider selling him. Thats positive, that club Are open to the idea. I Hope they take ev's thoughts into consideration as well. Its his system and ideas that afterall still could make coutinho a succes. If we do sell cou its probably to buy griez. Apparently he is eager to come Now.