7 - Philippe Coutinho - V1
- Thread starter AnfieldEd
- Start date
DonAK
President of FC Barcelona
Comments about the performance of Workhorse XI?
M
MessiCam
Guest
Similar performance to Dembélé against Getafe. Was dangerous but was wasteful with some passes.
Why does he get commended while Dembélé gets lambasted?
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Dembele was horrible against Getafe.
Slipping all the time and had 5+ strange/bad passes.
Aryagorn
Improvin' Perfection!!
what are these rumours about him changing nationality to Portugal?imagine though, he changes nationality and leads Portugal (and Penaldo) to world cup glory
He has already represented Brazil - He's no Di Stefano to be allowed to represent multiple countries!
Joan
Well-known member
BBZ8800
Senior Member
It doesn`t suit his theory about balanced workhorse XI, so he`ll ignore it.
Oh, that's about me?
I don't read all topics, sorry.
I have seen it now.
DonAk, about 442 sucked vs Eibar, there are 2 options:
1. 442 started to suck
2. EV killed our energy in January and February with playing too many matches and with playing the same key players in almost every match, and all formations will suck in upcoming weeks
3. we can always have a bad match.
I will put my money on an option No2.
We'll see tomorrow against Chelsea and in upcoming weeks.
DonAK
President of FC Barcelona
Might be starting to get a bit predictable too and more reliant on individual brilliance from Messi and Iniesta mostly with Suarez and Alba playing supporting roles.
serghei
Senior Member
True. The novelty of the system is gone. A lot of its success was down to the surprise factor.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
A question for guys who want to go back to 433.
A few things to consider:
In 2009:
1. we had prime Xavi-Iniesta-Messi. Our level of individual quality was 10/10
2. opponents didn't know how to DEFEND against Tiki-Taka. They left a lot of space between defensive and midfield line and we would just play triangles and TikiTaka'd them till death and score
3. opponents didn't know how to handle our pressure when they have the ball. They were losing ball easily in those early Tiki-Taka years and we were scoring easily after our pressure
4. opponents didn't know how to kill us on counters in a most effective way
Let's fast forward:
2013:
1. Xavi-Iniesta-Messi weren't on their prime anymore. Our level of individual quality dropped to let's say 9/10
2. opponents FIGURED OUT how to defend against 433 and TikiTaka, and that is: minimize the space between their defensive and midfield line and par 2 buses infront of their box with some basic rules:
a) 2 lines of players, like 4+4 or 4+5 or 5+5
b) leave flanks semi-vulnerable because attacking throw flanks wasn't our strength since we can only dribble and pass through flanks and we can't cross since we don't have anyone who jump and head the ball into the net due to our short players
3) crowd the middle around the box as much as possible
3. opponents learned how to avoid our pressure, unlike in early years. The key is to NOT to lose the ball in the first 4-5 seconds and just, for example: from the right flank pass the ball back to defenders, and then pass the ball to the left where we have less players (due to our pressure which started on their left flank)
So, in those years, it started to seem as: we are not pressuring as good as before. But in reality, the problem wasn't in the intensity of our pressure but that our opponents learned how to avoid our pressure.
4. also, teams mastered quick and deadly counters against us and started to score more and more after counters
When you sum it up, if we compared our play in 2009 and 2013 or 2014:
1. it seemed that our attacking play became more sterile and that we are just passing a ball around the box and how we don't have any ideas.
Why? NOT because of us, but because ALL teams started to crowd the middle around the box and lowered an amount of space between their defensive and midfield line and there was no room us anymore to Tiki-Taka them.
2. our pressure seemed way weaker than in 2009'. But it wasn't a problem in our pressure. It takes 2 for everything. And the other part (our opponents) figured us out.
3. also, we became way prone to deadly counters. Again, because teams learned all about our strenghts and about our weaknesses
Now, let's fast forward to 2018 and what can we expect?
1. we don't have Xavi anymore. Iniesta is a granny and Messi is 30+.
So, on an individual level, a simple logic implies that we won't be even close to 2009's 433, and that we will be way weaker even than 2013's or 2014's 433 in terms of individual skill.
2. about our attacking 433 play, teams will park 2 buses again and we'll face the same good old problems as in late Pep's days or in post-Pep's days when it was painful to watch our sterile 433.
3. our pressure will be poor.
a) because teams figured out how to escape from our pressure
b) because our midfielders are 30+ and they can't run too much
4. we will be prone to counters again, as always
Now, if you compare 2009 and 2018, you can see that one side evolved (our opponents) and adapted to our game.
While we haven't changed too much and majority of posters here would like to go back to a good old 2009's tactics (lol).
For example, go on Youtube and check how Mn Utd and teams defended poorly against our TikiTaka in 2009, and how any midtable team started to defend well after 2011.
In order for 433 to work better than in the last few years, we will need some improvements like:
1. buying better individual players
2. plus, more important, in terms of tactics: to add some new ideas to our 2009's 433 in order to outsmart our opponents who have figured us out.
Some posters are constantly saying how Real is playing something similar to 433.
1. but, they solved a problem of crowded middle by playing through flanks.
So, if an opponent parks 2 buses around their box, Real will play through wings (where the opponents are leaving tons of free space) and they will cross, and cross, and cross=and score with their taller (and yet technical) Cfs CR7, Benzema, Bale
2. also, Real is not playing as much possession style as we do, so they are forcing the opponents to get out of their half. And that way Real is forcing their opponents to leave more space between their defensive and midfield line.
Barca (or Pep's teams) can't do neither point No1 nor point No2, because we aren't crossing and because we aren't playing on counters.
Another solution is also what Lucho tried: to move away from a possession game, and to invite the opponents into our half.
That way we would be able to kill them on counters and we (the same as Real Madrid) forced the opponents to leave more space between their defensive and midfield line.
So, I am not saying that 442 is perfect.
But it surely is different and somewhat new (for our opponents).
If we'll go back to 433, imo, we can expect EXACTLY the same problems as in all post-Pep's years.
The opponents will play exactly the same against us, and we won't have any new ideas.
We will just pass the ball around the box till death.
Sometimes (against weaker opponents) it will work. But when we'll meet a stronger team, we will be absolutely sterile in attack against their crowded middle around their box.
So, for guys who want 433 back ("because our players will fit well into 433", lol), can you please try to find some TACTICAL solutions how to improve our game:
1. against 2 parked buses and crowded middle around the box
2. how to use flanks better since we can't cross?
3. what to do with our pressure since teams figured us out?
4. how to defend against fast counters in a CL KO matches, in for example: Coutinho-Rakitic-Busquets trio where Coutinho and 3 forwards don't defend and Rakitic and Busquets are 2 turtles?
Add to this at least 1 out of Alba/Roberto bombing forward and we will see 10 counters per match where Busquets-Pique-Umtiti need to defend against 4-5 opponents.
A few things to consider:
In 2009:
1. we had prime Xavi-Iniesta-Messi. Our level of individual quality was 10/10
2. opponents didn't know how to DEFEND against Tiki-Taka. They left a lot of space between defensive and midfield line and we would just play triangles and TikiTaka'd them till death and score
3. opponents didn't know how to handle our pressure when they have the ball. They were losing ball easily in those early Tiki-Taka years and we were scoring easily after our pressure
4. opponents didn't know how to kill us on counters in a most effective way
Let's fast forward:
2013:
1. Xavi-Iniesta-Messi weren't on their prime anymore. Our level of individual quality dropped to let's say 9/10
2. opponents FIGURED OUT how to defend against 433 and TikiTaka, and that is: minimize the space between their defensive and midfield line and par 2 buses infront of their box with some basic rules:
a) 2 lines of players, like 4+4 or 4+5 or 5+5
b) leave flanks semi-vulnerable because attacking throw flanks wasn't our strength since we can only dribble and pass through flanks and we can't cross since we don't have anyone who jump and head the ball into the net due to our short players
3) crowd the middle around the box as much as possible
3. opponents learned how to avoid our pressure, unlike in early years. The key is to NOT to lose the ball in the first 4-5 seconds and just, for example: from the right flank pass the ball back to defenders, and then pass the ball to the left where we have less players (due to our pressure which started on their left flank)
So, in those years, it started to seem as: we are not pressuring as good as before. But in reality, the problem wasn't in the intensity of our pressure but that our opponents learned how to avoid our pressure.
4. also, teams mastered quick and deadly counters against us and started to score more and more after counters
When you sum it up, if we compared our play in 2009 and 2013 or 2014:
1. it seemed that our attacking play became more sterile and that we are just passing a ball around the box and how we don't have any ideas.
Why? NOT because of us, but because ALL teams started to crowd the middle around the box and lowered an amount of space between their defensive and midfield line and there was no room us anymore to Tiki-Taka them.
2. our pressure seemed way weaker than in 2009'. But it wasn't a problem in our pressure. It takes 2 for everything. And the other part (our opponents) figured us out.
3. also, we became way prone to deadly counters. Again, because teams learned all about our strenghts and about our weaknesses
Now, let's fast forward to 2018 and what can we expect?
1. we don't have Xavi anymore. Iniesta is a granny and Messi is 30+.
So, on an individual level, a simple logic implies that we won't be even close to 2009's 433, and that we will be way weaker even than 2013's or 2014's 433 in terms of individual skill.
2. about our attacking 433 play, teams will park 2 buses again and we'll face the same good old problems as in late Pep's days or in post-Pep's days when it was painful to watch our sterile 433.
3. our pressure will be poor.
a) because teams figured out how to escape from our pressure
b) because our midfielders are 30+ and they can't run too much
4. we will be prone to counters again, as always
Now, if you compare 2009 and 2018, you can see that one side evolved (our opponents) and adapted to our game.
While we haven't changed too much and majority of posters here would like to go back to a good old 2009's tactics (lol).
For example, go on Youtube and check how Mn Utd and teams defended poorly against our TikiTaka in 2009, and how any midtable team started to defend well after 2011.
In order for 433 to work better than in the last few years, we will need some improvements like:
1. buying better individual players
2. plus, more important, in terms of tactics: to add some new ideas to our 2009's 433 in order to outsmart our opponents who have figured us out.
Some posters are constantly saying how Real is playing something similar to 433.
1. but, they solved a problem of crowded middle by playing through flanks.
So, if an opponent parks 2 buses around their box, Real will play through wings (where the opponents are leaving tons of free space) and they will cross, and cross, and cross=and score with their taller (and yet technical) Cfs CR7, Benzema, Bale
2. also, Real is not playing as much possession style as we do, so they are forcing the opponents to get out of their half. And that way Real is forcing their opponents to leave more space between their defensive and midfield line.
Barca (or Pep's teams) can't do neither point No1 nor point No2, because we aren't crossing and because we aren't playing on counters.
Another solution is also what Lucho tried: to move away from a possession game, and to invite the opponents into our half.
That way we would be able to kill them on counters and we (the same as Real Madrid) forced the opponents to leave more space between their defensive and midfield line.
So, I am not saying that 442 is perfect.
But it surely is different and somewhat new (for our opponents).
If we'll go back to 433, imo, we can expect EXACTLY the same problems as in all post-Pep's years.
The opponents will play exactly the same against us, and we won't have any new ideas.
We will just pass the ball around the box till death.
Sometimes (against weaker opponents) it will work. But when we'll meet a stronger team, we will be absolutely sterile in attack against their crowded middle around their box.
So, for guys who want 433 back ("because our players will fit well into 433", lol), can you please try to find some TACTICAL solutions how to improve our game:
1. against 2 parked buses and crowded middle around the box
2. how to use flanks better since we can't cross?
3. what to do with our pressure since teams figured us out?
4. how to defend against fast counters in a CL KO matches, in for example: Coutinho-Rakitic-Busquets trio where Coutinho and 3 forwards don't defend and Rakitic and Busquets are 2 turtles?
Add to this at least 1 out of Alba/Roberto bombing forward and we will see 10 counters per match where Busquets-Pique-Umtiti need to defend against 4-5 opponents.
Another problem with 4-3-3 is if messi plays false nine then Suarez plays left wing, and if Suarez plays striker then Messi will be shifted to right wing (where he always moves inside and never tracks back leaving that flank exposed)
The 4-4-2 lets both of them be central and also makes Barca more solid
The 4-4-2 lets both of them be central and also makes Barca more solid
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