8 - Pedri

[Givenchy]

Fans are so fickle. When a player does well for a good period of time he is lauded with all sorts of praises and exaggerations ; and suddenly he is down to nothing because he hits a rough patch. Flavor of the week, flavor of the month, take a pick.

Why limited to Foden? Why don’t people compare Pedri to all the great midfielders and especially attacking midfielders that ever played the game and say Pedri is bad, bad and bad? Perhaps even Foden himself is not that great compared to them.

I haven't really paid attention to football or this forum much since the pandemic started, has Pedri vs Foden become a thing here?

Both are huge talents, Foden is ahead clearly which is normal considering hes older, played at a higher level of football etc. also have to take into account how good Pep is at developing talents, just look what he managed with Sterling for example

 

[hardyboy]

Sure, but Pedri wasn't brought to be a starter right away. Circumstances made it such that he had to start and until January/February he played really well and a lot of times did play like a special talent.

Foden was barely playing for City at the same age. Now a player's development isn't necessarily linear, but you get my point.

Agree that circumstances has made him a starter but what puzzles is that the members on this forum are content with him. Has our standard fallen so much that we are now content with mediocrity?

 

[DonAK]

Agree that circumstances has made him a starter but what puzzles is that the members on this forum are content with him. Has our standard fallen so much that we are now content with mediocrity?

He's an 18 year old player. A very young and talented player that has been pushed into a starting role due to various circumstances.

If you cannot accept that a young player like that has irregular performances when he's still learning how to play for a team like Barca then it's not an issue about people being content with mediocrity, but sorry to say, people like you being spoiled.

No player that's 17 or 18 plays like a World Class player every single game. Maybe if you're Messi you do that, but 99% of footballers on mother earth don't.

Heck I don't think even Messi did that until he turned 19/20.

 

[Andresito]

No player that's 17 or 18 plays like a World Class player every single game. Maybe if you're Messi you do that, but 99% of footballers on mother earth don't.

Amount of pro players in the world is around 113 000. You're saying there are 1130 players who were world class at 18?

 

[serghei]

Pedri was excellent at first until he started to be played almost non-stop. Let's hope Koeman will wake the fuck up and we'll see a fresher version of Pedri next season. Because the current version is way too slow, and this is not something that gets better with age usually.

I do think Foden will be the better player, purely because he seems faster and stronger physically.

 

[khaled_a_d]

People are a bit aggressive with their expectations tbh.
Pedri was really good against Valancia after being rested against Granada, and people still criticised him for whatever reason.

His "basic" game is actually very advanced for someone of his age, most fanbases will be ecstatic if there 18 years old midfielder was doing as well as Pedri even in last month

 

[fergus90]

A large part of the problem is because Barcelona has been used to having the best players in the world in their position, that they automatically assume every talent coming through will be or should be the best youngster in world football in their position.

We have good talents coming through and its great to see, but taper the expectations. Sometimes there are just better players at different clubs, just the way football goes sometimes.

The main issue is a lack of rotation that means the midfield has gone a bit stale. If Koeman trusts none of the alternatives then a new CM needs to be brought in that will offer something and keep players fresh too.

 

[Andresito]

He's playing at about the same level as Rakitic did before he left.

It'd be different if it was current 23 year old Alena playing that way, with not much space to develop. Having an 18 year old at this level is astonishing.

But of course that level is still fairly low and it shows that we lack other alternativs in midfield.

 

[khaled_a_d]

A large part of the problem is because Barcelona has been used to having the best players in the world in their position, that they automatically assume every talent coming through will be or should be the best youngster in world football in their position.

We have good talents coming through and its great to see, but taper the expectations. Sometimes there are just better players at different clubs, just the way football goes sometimes.

Another problem is that people lives in nostalgia ( and highlight videos) when it comes to those players who were greats.

Iniesta was a rich man S.Roberto in his early years, played RW, RWB (as Dest currently) , DM, CM under Rijkaard but wasn't as creative consistently at all in this regard before he was 23.

Same thing with Xavi, he was frustrating defensively and sometimes sterile on the ball until he was 23, even then he wasn't consistently awesome until he was 28
Luka Modric moved to EPL at 23, wasn't such a hit early on either, joined RM at 27 and was considered a flop in his 1st season.

And all of those started their careers as teenagers too, but still took their time to be world class players.
People will remember the good moments, the highlight videos of their debates and then tell you they were good since day 1, and forgot all about the growing pains they had


Sure, we can argue there is a survival biws in such arguments, and for every Xavi there is an Arthur or Alena.
But when someone showing enough potential in 1 season, and is just 18, people could give him some slack tbh, and not compare him to players 2.5 years older who just started to do well for his team.

 

[fergus90]

Another problem is that people lives in nostalgia ( and highlight videos) when it comes to those players who were greats.

Iniesta was a rich man S.Roberto in his early years, played RW, RWB (as Dest currently) , DM, CM under Rijkaard but wasn't as creative consistently at all in this regard before he was 23.

Same thing with Xavi, he was frustrating defensively and sometimes sterile on the ball until he was 23, even then he wasn't consistently awesome until he was 28
Luka Modric moved to EPL at 23, wasn't such a hit early on either, joined RM at 27 and was considered a flop in his 1st season.

And all of those started their careers as teenagers too, but still took their time to be world class players.
People will remember the good moments, the highlight videos of their debates and then tell you they were good since day 1, and forgot all about the growing pains they had


Sure, we can argue there is a survival biws in such arguments, and for every Xavi there is an Arthur or Alena.
But when someone showing enough potential in 1 season, and is just 18, people could give him some slack tbh, and not compare him to players 2.5 years older who just started to do well for his team.

I agree with everything you're saying, players simply need time to develop and grow. We've got a very good crop of youngsters now, although they'd benefit from having players they can rotate with to ease the burden a little.

I assume you're talking about Foden in the last sentence. He's done superbly for a few years now so these performances aren't a new thing. People were frustrated at Pep for being conservative with his minutes but he's been massively lauded and hyped here for about 4 years now. In any case it's unfair to expect every young talent to end up the best in the world in their position, realistically it just rarely happens.

If it does, great. If it doesn't, we've got a very good and useful squad player for minimal fee.

 

[Bobo32]

Another problem is that people lives in nostalgia ( and highlight videos) when it comes to those players who were greats.

Iniesta was a rich man S.Roberto in his early years, played RW, RWB (as Dest currently) , DM, CM under Rijkaard but wasn't as creative consistently at all in this regard before he was 23.

Same thing with Xavi, he was frustrating defensively and sometimes sterile on the ball until he was 23, even then he wasn't consistently awesome until he was 28
Luka Modric moved to EPL at 23, wasn't such a hit early on either, joined RM at 27 and was considered a flop in his 1st season.

And all of those started their careers as teenagers too, but still took their time to be world class players.
People will remember the good moments, the highlight videos of their debates and then tell you they were good since day 1, and forgot all about the growing pains they had


Sure, we can argue there is a survival biws in such arguments, and for every Xavi there is an Arthur or Alena.
But when someone showing enough potential in 1 season, and is just 18, people could give him some slack tbh, and not compare him to players 2.5 years older who just started to do well for his team.

I agree wholeheartedly with most things in this post (although I think I come to some different conclusions than you in the end)

I'm extra glad to see someone bring up the comparison Iniesta-Roberto - as I don't enjoy being called a troll I never mentioned this before, but I remember thinking Roberto played a bit like a young Iniesta when coming through...
I thought Iniesta was pretty magical in his first years when mostly coming on as a sub (although he couldn't finish) though, and I rated both Xavi and Iniesta very highly before 2008 (although I preferred Deco to both, stylistically). I had some sense that Xavi+Iniesta would benefit from playing together and getting full trust though, but had no idea that they would be as dominant. I think it's clear that both players benefitted from the system and the team in 2008, it's not that they suddenly out of nothing became better players at the same time, aged 23 and 28. But I have made the same point regarding Xavi, Iniesta and Modric too, in different threads here, when people talk about age and potential and so on.

I don't think age and performance or "potential" are the most important things, but style, skills and habits - and the most important thing is probably being in the right surroundings!
Pedri should be judged as a player playing 3000min+ for Barcelona this season. He is young and can develop, but it won't come automatically. I see some habits and flaws that needs some work if he is going to become a world class central midfielder.

But I think it's often the same people who hyped Pedri too much some months ago who now are a bit too critical of him, or who soon will be. Soon I'll be his highest defendant here I suspect... (If not earlier, then in a few years when he isn't "young" anymore)

 

[serghei]

Time and the player's ambition are both needed, but other very important things go into the mix as well. Most notably, the quality of the manager, and the quality of the collective.

Thing is, without Pep, Foden doesn't evolve the same. You need the right manager and the right collective to increase the chance of players fulfilling their potential. Otherwise, it's much much tougher to see talent maturing into a world-class player. It's not just the player that is all by himself like some may think. The quality of the support the club provides through managers, other players, rest of the staff makes a huge difference.

 

[Bobo32]

I agree with everything you're saying, players simply need time to develop and grow. We've got a very good crop of youngsters now, although they'd benefit from having players they can rotate with to ease the burden a little.

I assume you're talking about Foden in the last sentence. He's done superbly for a few years now so these performances aren't a new thing. People were frustrated at Pep for being conservative with his minutes but he's been massively lauded and hyped here for about 4 years now. In any case it's unfair to expect every young talent to end up the best in the world in their position, realistically it just rarely happens.

If it does, great. If it doesn't, we've got a very good and useful squad player for minimal fee.

My point, which I argued a bit in the Champions League thread, is that Pep probably was right in being conservative with Foden.
We can of course never know, as there is only one outcome available to us, but this is my persuasion.
I am never frustrated when Pep is handling young players like that - he did the same with Thiago, Kimmich and many more. It's a sign he believes in them and that they will become great, if they stay with him.

I believe Pedri would play maybe 1/3 of the minutes he did under Koeman if Pep was here this year. I think he would be a perfect player where Pep would keep praising him, playing him now and then, focus very much on his habits. There would be training and match footage where he yells in his face because he was not receiving with the right foot, not positioned in the exact correct spot or running at the right time when they're 4-0 up, etc.
Koeman started yelling on Mingueza, then subbed him, then didn't shake his hand, then played him one game but then again put him on the bench the game after, when Mingueza did something he didn't like...

I think it's easy to forget that football players are very lazy, and don't care so much about the details. The ones succeeding are often very talented, and didn't need to think very much about the "small" things. There was a famous clip where Pep explained to Sterling how to recieve the ball, and it was made out to be some genious instruction. It's the same thing that is told to 12y.o kids! It was needed with Sterling, and with many smarter players too, but the big thing is to just be a perfectionist with these habits, and tell the players that they are doing wrong.

It is true we cannot know very much about what is done with Pedri or any other players behind closed doors, but this is my impression from the outside.

 

[serghei]

You're always right to take your time with a very young player. Also it may not seem like much, but there's a major difference between 17-19 years old and 21-22. A lot of maturing is done in those apparently short 2-3 years. The child becomes a man, sounds cheesy but it's true.

 

[BusiTheKing]

People need to look at the state of top football. It should be an obvious fact that Spanish teams haven't been pushed enough on the physical side of the game. Top English teams are miles ahead and it's showing. Both on fitness but also on straight up pace and physicality.

We had the arrogance of thinking Rakitic or Iniesta in his thirties were up for Champions League football. And we paid for that arrogance. Thinking Pedri will ever be a good player in top level intense football is the same kind of arrogance, the same kind of quixotic mindset, thinking that if we're technical and intelligent, we can just play around them. A great illusion it is. He's quite simply not imposing enough, not quick enough on the first meters and too slow on distances as well. You can have all the talent and intelligence in the world. It's not going to matter when you're late to the action.

We've paid for the arrogance before and we're going to pay for it again. And what a mystery it is every fucking year when this gets exposed. Because all season in La Liga, the team hasn't looked that slow or weak. Why all of a sudden do we look like oldboys against a pro team? Must be a weak mentality, maybe we ate wrong, maybe we're just having a bad day!? Or maybe that weak mentality has something to do with the very predictable despair of playing an opponent that's a meter ahead of you at every ball.

Pedri is obviously very talented and he can no doubt be a good to great reliable player against low to mid-table teams in La Liga. But come March, he's going to be as much as a liability as Rakitic, Iniesta, and Busquets were in those recent year embarrassments.