8 - Pedri

[Porque]

We used to have arguements that we play better without Messi too, because it causes everyone else to stepup, work hard and be accountable. And I'm talking the version of Messi 8 years or so back, not the later years Messi.

What's causing us to look better without FdJ and Pedri (and Gavi) is that the whole team is peaking in their fitness now compared to when they were available. We would still look like Turdistan still right now not converting chances and conceding on the counter if Lewandowski hadn't of pulled top form out of his ass for example.

If all three were at their peak fitness and inside the squad, then undoubtably we would be better than we have been of recent with Fermin and Christensen.

If you go to our peak last season before injuries ravaged us, so around the SuperCopa triumph to before the Man Utd games roughly, we were a better side and playing better in that brief period. Frenkie was there.

So sell Pedri? Well yes, but only if his injuries lead him down the path of Ansu. But if he recovers, then he is an asset that we have just forgotten how good he really is.

 

[serghei]

De Jong is gonna fit in. He can play with fewer touches at CM. Pedri I don't think so.

Top AM and top DM are very needed. All of Gavi, Pedri, De Jong have limitations that make them fit for the 3rd spot, complementary CM, but not for any of the 2. This is why Gundogan is key even though he is over the hill.

 

[jamrock]

People talked poorly about Iniesta is first couple of seasons too, he's slow, he's too small all that jazz.

Yes I know Pedri is no Iniesta.

Pedri's ceiling is too potentially high to consider selling him, same as why we couldn't sell fati after his first injury the potential of what could be was too high, you had to roll the dice.

What is very clear is that you can't build a midfield with de jong, Pedri and gavi, I'm excluding gundogan now, as I'm thinking medium to long term.

No matter what the formation they all can't fit, so at some point, we will have to sell one, and the only one we know for a fact, how good he is and will be continuing to be, right now, is the oldest one on the list.

All 3 are either an AM, or Box to box, not one is a true CM or definitely not a DM.

It remains me of when we signed cesc, could it work with Iniesta and xavi.

If de Jong was better defensively and pedri was a B.silva type that could just as comfortably play on the wingers it could work.

 

[Horatio]

You lot jumping the gun with "playing better". Our defense has improved yes and Lamine been stellar. Going to need a few more games to draw conclusions on our MF. We have been more on offensive for one because of Fermin's profile. But against better teams his shortcomings on mf would be more likely to be exposed and exploited. Also better defense allows you to go forward more and take risks.

 

[vegitot]

People talked poorly about Iniesta is first couple of seasons too, he's slow, he's too small all that jazz.

Yes I know Pedri is no Iniesta.

Pedri's ceiling is too potentially high to consider selling him, same as why we couldn't sell fati after his first injury the potential of what could be was too high, you had to roll the dice.

What is very clear is that you can't build a midfield with de jong, Pedri and gavi, I'm excluding gundogan now, as I'm thinking medium to long term.

No matter what the formation they all can't fit, so at some point, we will have to sell one, and the only one we know for a fact, how good he is and will be continuing to be, right now, is the oldest one on the list.

All 3 or either an AM, or Box to box, not one is a true CM or definitely not a DM.

It remains me of when we signed cesc, could it work with Iniesta and xavi.

If de Jong was better defensively and pedri was a B.silva type that could just as comfortably play on the wingers it could work.

Iniesta wasn't slow. He was quick and could accelerate, dribble every one.

 

[khaled_a_d]

We used to have arguements that we play better without Messi too, because it causes everyone else to stepup, work hard and be accountable. And I'm talking the version of Messi 8 years or so back, not the later years Messi.

What's causing us to look better without FdJ and Pedri (and Gavi) is that the whole team is peaking in their fitness now compared to when they were available. We would still look like Turdistan still right now not converting chances and conceding on the counter if Lewandowski hadn't of pulled top form out of his ass for example.

If all three were at their peak fitness and inside the squad, then undoubtably we would be better than we have been of recent with Fermin and Christensen.

If you go to our peak last season before injuries ravaged us, so around the SuperCopa triumph to before the Man Utd games roughly, we were a better side and playing better in that brief period. Frenkie was there.

So sell Pedri? Well yes, but only if his injuries lead him down the path of Ansu. But if he recovers, then he is an asset that we have just forgotten how good he really is.

Fair argument.
And here I am not exactly disagreeing, but rather than putting some sort of brainstorm in it.
But do you think "both" can work together? this is the main issue here.
We are always a bit too lethargic with them both, always teased with a potential that never comes.
And beside that, I would argue that Gundogan is showing us (or reminding us) what a world class CM means.

Something always feels off when both are there tbh.
And then, I love the word you used with Pedri "an asset" which is a bit of an issue here, both are indeed assets, that we are trying to preserve, without asking the question of whether both can grow or maintain their asset status together.
Because we might be wasting those "assets" by looking at each one individually rather than looking at them collectively.

 

[khaled_a_d]

All 3 are either an AM, or Box to box, not one is a true CM or definitely not a DM.

This is where I massively disagree. Non of the 3 is a modern day AM.
Frenkie is an obvious one, but the truth Pedri is a CM whom we are trying to shove in the AM position.
A modern day AM is more like Wirtz, Odegaard, Musiala, Bellingham, Simons to name a few. We are back to it's more like the role Kaka played than the one Iniesta played, and Pedri is more conservative than Iniesta.
Pedri is the guys who make the pre-assist rather than the assist, he is the one who sends the fullback or winger in danger position to assist, rather than going for the kill himself. He isn't that direct or creative or offense oriented.
Gavi when plays in midfield is a closer to b2b, a menace who runs his ass off, a bit more direct (and clumsy) in attack but not an attacking midfielder either.
This is one of the main issue, we are trying to build midfield around b2b and central midfielders (who aren't classic CM) without either a defensive midfielder or offensive midfielder.

 

[jamrock]

This is where I massively disagree. Non of the 3 is a modern day AM.
Frenkie is an obvious one, but the truth Pedri is a CM whom we are trying to shove in the AM position.
A modern day AM is more like Wirtz, Odegaard, Musiala, Bellingham, Simons to name a few. We are back to it's more like the role Kaka played than the one Iniesta played, and Pedri is more conservative than Iniesta.
Pedri is the guys who make the pre-assist rather than the assist, he is the one who sends the fullback or winger in danger position to assist, rather than going for the kill himself. He isn't that direct or creative or offense oriented.
Gavi when plays in midfield is a closer to b2b, a menace who runs his ass off, a bit more direct (and clumsy) in attack but not an attacking midfielder either.
This is one of the main issue, we are trying to build midfield around b2b and central midfielders (who aren't classic CM) without either a defensive midfielder or offensive midfielder.

Pedri is definitely not a CM, he can develop into one but since his is days at his previous club he was alway played closer to goal, we have to keep in mind that over the last two seasons his development has basically stalled due to injury.



But he's much more of a B.Silva type that a CM, which is why coaches always play him closer to goal.



He's an AM who can develop into a central midfielder.



But as of now, none of De jong, Gavi or him is that.

 

[khaled_a_d]

Pedri is definitely not a CM, he can develop into one but since his is days at his previous club he was alway played closer to goal, we have to keep in mind that over the last two seasons his development has basically stalled due to injury.



But he's much more of a B.Silva type that a CM, which is why coaches always play him closer to goal.



He's an AM who can develop into a central midfielder.



But as of now, none of De jong, Gavi or him is that.

Well, he is 100% not a AM either, not in this era.
So if he isn't a CM then he isn't a guy we should hope to keep.
Either that we just pray football change it's trend again so his type of players can succeed or we will be wasting our time with him.

PS: he didn't play closer to the goal with Las Palmas, he was LM or RM, same way Koke was for Atletico at younger age. closer to the line not to the goal.

 

[jamrock]

Well, he is 100% not a AM either, not in this era.
So if he isn't a CM then he isn't a guy we should hope to keep.
Either that we just pray football change it's trend again so his type of players can succeed or we will be wasting our time with him.

Of the 3 he's definitely the one we should keep, eras are irrelevant, we had Gerrard lampard, kaka and many more scoring.15+ goals and 15+ assist when Iniesta was playing and not getting anywhere close to those numbers, he would be the one providing the key pass before the final assist, that's Pedri's game.

Kid doesn't play due to injuries and people have gotten how good he is.

He's an attacking midfielder, has been that is entire career when he was considered better than all those players you named before his injuries started to stack up.

He can develop into a CM,AM hybrid like B.Silva, Iniesta,D.silva to name a few which would be great for us, play gavi beside him and all we need his a DM.

For every lampard there has always been a David silva.

 

[vegitot]

Pedri is definitely not a CM, he can develop into one but since his is days at his previous club he was alway played closer to goal, we have to keep in mind that over the last two seasons his development has basically stalled due to injury.



But he's much more of a B.Silva type that a CM, which is why coaches always play him closer to goal.



He's an AM who can develop into a central midfielder.



But as of now, none of De jong, Gavi or him is that.

Pedri is a CM, not an AM. This season Xavi tried to push him into an AM role but failed. His days at Las Palmas or with Spain, he never is an AM or play high like this season.

Iniesta didn't score nor assist but the way he attacked is something Pedri hasn't done anything similiar (Iniesta's one two with his winger, Pedri rarely does that). Iniesta was a menace with the ball, directly take on his opponents. Pedri doesn't.

 

[khaled_a_d]

Of the 3 he's definitely the one we should keep, eras are irrelevant, we had Gerrard lampard, kaka and many more scoring.15+ goals and 15+ assist when Iniesta was playing and not getting anywhere close to those numbers, he would be the one providing the key pass before the final assist, that's Pedri's game.

Kid doesn't play due to injuries and people have gotten how good he is.

He's an attacking midfielder, has been that is entire career when he was considered better than all those players you named before his injuries started to stack up.

He can develop into a CM,AM hybrid like B.Silva, Iniesta,D.silva to name a few which would be great for us, play gavi beside him and all we need his a DM.

For every lampard there has always been a David silva.

Pedri played as a conservative LM in Las Palmas, a conservative RM. a CM there and very rare AM.

With Koeman he has played early in more attacking role, then as CM, then as a pivot in double pivot midfield, then with Spain as CM, then he has been practically a CM here under every definition of the positions.

And Pedri lacks the assists to show for in comparison to Iniesta, he lacks the ability to glide through defense, those has been a rare sight. He has a total of 11 assists in his entire career at top flight, and country in 4 years, Xavi Simons has same number of assists in this season alone.
We haven't seen anything that shows Pedri can do this since 2020, it is essentially projecting something that player showed glimpses at, as a consistent ability.

And none of this is a criticism for Pedri, I firmly believe he is an elite talent, it has more to do with team's dynamics. It is simply a projection to consider Pedri as an attacking midfielder or a coping mechanism to try to fit all assets we have in the team rather than facing the reality. If Pedri was an AM he would have solved a lot of the team issues in midfield.

Frankly I think Pedri and Gavi will soon face the same issue, and one of them will have to kick the other for either/both to fulfil potential, but this is something we can kick the can down the road if Pedri stays.

I won't argue the Frenkie vs Pedri, because even for me it is very close call, but thinking Pedri is a successful AM isn't based on anything we have seen from him consistently in past 4 years with over 150 games played.

Edit: Pedri has 2 more assists in CdR that isn't listed on Whoscored, although they are against 3rd division Cornella
Also, eras change the definitions and role of positions. It matters a lot.

One Late Edit: Only 12 games out of 26 with Las Palmas, did Pedri play as AM. Hope this settles it

 

[jamrock]

Pedri is a CM, not an AM. This season Xavi tried to push him into an AM role but failed. His days at Las Palmas or with Spain, he never is an AM or play high like this season.

Iniesta didn't score nor assist but the way he attacked is something Pedri hasn't done anything similiar (Iniesta's one two with his winger, Pedri rarely does that). Iniesta was a menace with the ball, directly take on his opponents. Pedri doesn't.

He's played like 5 games to this relax,he didn't success or fail, not enough games to day one way or the other.

He was 100% played in the attacking 3rd at las Palmas.

 

[jamrock]

Pedri played as a conservative LM in Las Palmas, a conservative RM. a CM there and very rare AM.

With Koeman he has played early in more attacking role, then as CM, then as a pivot in double pivot midfield, then with Spain as CM, then he has been practically a CM here under every definition of the positions.

And Pedri lacks the assists to show for in comparison to Iniesta, he lacks the ability to glide throw defense, those has been a rare sight. He has a total of 11 assists in his entire career at top flight, and country in 4 years, Xavi Simons has same number of assists in this season alone.
We haven't seen anything that shows Pedri can do this since 2020, it is essentially projecting something that player showed glimpses at, as a consistent ability.

And non of this is a criticism for Pedri, I firmly believe he is an elite talent, it has more to do with team's dynamics. It is simply a projection to consider Pedri as an attacking midfielder or a coping mechanism to try to fit all assets we have in the team rather than facing the reality. If Pedri was an AM he would have solved a lot of the team issues in midfield.

Frankly I think Pedri and Gavi will soon face the same issue, and one of them will have to kick the other for either/both to fulfil potential, but this is something we can kick the can down the road if we Pedri stays.

I won't argue the Frenkie vs Pedri, because even for me it is very close call, but thinking Pedri is a successful AM isn't based on anything we have seen from him consistently in past 4 years through with over 150 games played.

Conservative LM/RM? AKA an attacking midfielder,he's always played in the final 3rd of the pitch rarely in the middle, even less so deeper.

The hope is for him to develop into a CM.

No coping mechanism I've said for a long time we shouldn't keep all 3 and should sell de Jong, the rest is just coming around to that now.

Like I said for every goal scoring midfielder there Is a D.Silva and many others.

Let the dude finally recover from injury and show what he's about.

You're just insistent on us selling one of our better young players for whatever reason,which is absolutely not what we should do.

PS if pedri was/is an attacking midfielder it would solve none of the issues in our Midfield, excluding, gundogan because none of our young midfielders can play DM or CM.

 

[BusiTheKing]

Iniesta could play pass and move. Pedri can't. More like pass and take a break with him. Something tells me this won't change. Boy simply looks gassed after each action.

Has to be an AM, then. But he can't really do that either. Too shy, lacks aggression and initiative. Lacks that spring in his step that is so pronounced in a player like Wirtz.

There are things is very good at. Picking the right pass at the right time. But this is a luxury trait. He will place a very nice cherry on top, but he won't bake the cake.