Andrés Iniesta

[Jamie Cal]

He's not immune to criticism. His consistency isn't the same, but his role is really different now. Rakitic also doesn't play here like he did for sevilla. Barça don't have an AM anymore. The final third is MSN's.

Of course players have different roles now, but it still doesn't excuse him when he's in the final 3rd, and he's there a lot for the reasons I said in my last post.

And honestly - it's so plain to see, almost every game how poor he is in danger zones. Ripsta said about the first 15 minutes and people came at hick neck over it, but even Neymar and Dani were getting frustrated with it. People fall back on nebulousness 'can't judge him on stats' but I'm saying those stats aren't necessarily indicative anyway.

Like someone else said in Messi's thread, we're at some point gonna have to decide whether we're gradually working Messi to midfield, or buying a midfielder with more legs and dynamic with the ball to let Messi stay forward.

 

[Flavia]

Of course players have different roles now, but it still doesn't excuse him when he's in the final 3rd, and he's there a lot for the reasons I said in my last post.

And honestly - it's so plain to see, almost every game how poor he is in danger zones. Ripsta said about the first 15 minutes and people came at hick neck over it, but even Neymar and Dani were getting frustrated with it. People fall back on nebulousness 'can't judge him on stats' but I'm saying those stats aren't necessarily indicative anyway.

Like someone else said in Messi's thread, we're at some point gonna have to decide whether we're gradually working Messi to midfield, or buying a midfielder with more legs and dynamic with the ball to let Messi stay forward.

Messi as a midfielder only wouldn't work. He won't start defending anytime soon. So it'd be needed to change the system again, and play 2 dm's behind him to see if it'd work. A player like Iniesta doesn't forget how to do things, he really sacrificed his game for the team. No other midfielder would start having a great number of assists or final passes, as this is not the midfielders job anymore with Enrique. He's maximizing MSN, and it's really no wonder they're the 3 with most goals and assists.

 

[Jamie Cal]

Messi as a midfielder only wouldn't work. He won't start defending anytime soon. So it'd be needed to change the system again, and play 2 dm's behind him to see if it'd work. A player like Iniesta doesn't forget how to do things, he really sacrificed his game for the team. No other midfielder would start having a great number of assists or final passes, as this is not the midfielders job anymore with Enrique. He's maximizing MSN, and it's really no wonder they're the 3 with most goals and assists.

Well of course, no team with 3 out-and-out attackers that (largely) don't defend can play a number 10. I'm not doubting Iniesta's primary positioning is there. But you still can't act like he's never in the final 3rd, the very idea of playing a parked bus leads him there.

I find In tight spaces from deep he's still brilliant, when we're being pressed hard he can still soak up pressure at ease, and I think he's put in a big shift defensively particularly the last month. Last night was a good example of that, but it was also a good example (the first 15 minutes) of how limited he is when he gets close to goal.

Like I said, I don't live and die by goals and assists anyway. I think Modric is a brilliant player but he's not scoring or assisting much either. But for me, Iniesta is the obvious player that could be replaced easily.

 

[Flavia]

Well of course, no team with 3 out-and-out attackers that (largely) don't defend can play a number 10. I'm not doubting Iniesta's primary positioning is there. But you still can't act like he's never in the final 3rd, the very idea of playing a parked bus leads him there.

I find In tight spaces from deep he's still brilliant, when we're being pressed hard he can still soak up pressure at ease, and I think he's put in a big shift defensively particularly the last month. Last night was a good example of that, but it was also a good example (the first 15 minutes) of how limited he is when he gets close to goal.

Like I said, I don't live and die by goals and assists anyway. I think Modric is a brilliant player but he's not scoring or assisting much either. But for me, Iniesta is the obvious player that could be replaced easily.

He didn't have a brilliant second half this season, but he was great in the 1st half. His exibition in the bernaleo comes to mind. And I'm seeing some pundits from spain and catalunya praising him, saying this season he was better than in the treble. I think his inconsistency is his biggest problem nowadays. But doing the invisible work can get people to think a player isn't playing well anymore. I don't agree he'd be replaced easily. Midfielders struggle to adapt, see arda.

 

[Stric]

Man, you know how spoiled we've become with the incredible level of our main players that we're actually discussing how "bad" Andres Iniesta has been this season and whether he should be zoned out (here comes the best part) in favor of a "world class midfielder". Jesus, the stuff you read here. Newsflash, the guy in Doha that goes by the name of Xavi Hernandez is still easily among the top 5 midfielders in the world, and he's retired from the top leagues. You'd think that we'd learn to cherish these guys while they're still around. Iniesta is top-class, and he's still better than anyone we could maybe get our hands on. And more importantly, he fits this team and that LM role better than anyone in the world. The only guy who'd be a significant upgrade to our midfield is Modrić, and we can't have him.

 

[Ripsta]

Man, you know how spoiled we've become with the incredible level of our main players that we're actually discussing how "bad" Andres Iniesta has been this season and whether he should be zoned out (here comes the best part) in favor of a "world class midfielder". Jesus, the stuff you read here. Newsflash, the guy in Doha that goes by the name of Xavi Hernandez is still easily among the top 5 midfielders in the world, and he's retired from the top leagues. You'd think that we'd learn to cherish these guys while they're still around. Iniesta is top-class, and he's still better than anyone we could maybe get our hands on. And more importantly, he fits this team and that LM role better than anyone in the world. The only guy who'd be a significant upgrade to our midfield is Modrić, and we can't have him.

No he's not. If he was he'd still be here.

 

[Darko]

He was MOTM against Real this season, he can still come up with the goods at the highest level.
But we do need to start looking to the future and get somebody to eventually replace him in our strongest 11. He isn't getting any younger so I expect him to play the big games next season, and to rest during the easy ones.

 

[footyfan]

The final third isn't MSN, it's Suarez and Neymar. Messi has to keep dropping deep to get the ball to them as the midfield just can't do it. They're so slow and fearful of making a defence splitting pass that the front three are always heavily marked.

Messi has been moving into the midfield centrally from the very first game of the season. Scroll to player positions tab and see for yourself.

First league game of the season:

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/985455/MatchReport/Spain-La-Liga-2015-2016-Athletic-Club-Barcelona

Second league game of the season:

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/985465/MatchReport/Spain-La-Liga-2015-2016-Barcelona-Malaga

Fourth league game of the season:

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/985506/MatchReport/Spain-La-Liga-2015-2016-Barcelona-Levante

Fifth league game of the season:

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/985487/MatchReport/Spain-La-Liga-2015-2016-Celta-Vigo-Barcelona


Don't think I need to go on further. Compare this to the first Atleti game in 2015, the 3-1 win at home:

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/8...n-La-Liga-2014-2015-Barcelona-Atletico-Madrid


This narrative of "Messi dropping deep because his midfield can't get him the ball" is getting so old, and on top of that it's not even true. If anything, maybe if he stuck out wide and made threatening runs inside, the midfielders would have the opportunities necessary to give some good passes to him. As it is, he comes in and stands 5 yards next to Iniesta (all the while basically being a cone defensively), so what is Iniesta supposed to do? The reason Iniesta spends the majority of his time outside the final third is because now has three forwards in front of him who engage with their defenders and have the potential to lose the ball and start a counter-attack for the team. The few times he is in the final third, he's stuck because the best passer, dribbler and finisher on the team is standing right next to him. Meanwhile, his midfield partner Rakitic is stuck out on the right wing because Messi has come inside. Xavi would never go there, which meant Iniesta always had a reliable partner next to him to keep the game ticking or cover for him while he goes on his dribbling forays.

Watch the video below and see where his dribbles are occurring, his passes are coming from and how his defending has to influence his positioning.

[youtube]05yVuL-wR8Q[/youtube]


All you guys are doing his nitpicking on how he provides nothing in the final 3rd when that's almost never where his positioning takes him in the first place. Do you think any new midfielder would go on prime Iniesta level dribbles or give prime Iniesta level passes while Messi is standing in a good position right next to him, all the while covering defensively for the front 3 and keep the game ticking at every other moment? Do you think a player who's technique is apparently not in question suddenly forgot how to dribble? The man of the match in the last CL final suddenly forgot how to pass the ball?

As I said, maybe you should be pointing fingers at your coach instead. For the game Barcelona is playing, Iniesta's skill and talent is wasted. Sell him to Man City instead and see how much his skills have truly declined.

 

[Ritchie]

He didn't have a brilliant second half this season, but he was great in the 1st half. His exibition in the bernaleo comes to mind. And I'm seeing some pundits from spain and catalunya praising him, saying this season he was better than in the treble. I think his inconsistency is his biggest problem nowadays. But doing the invisible work can get people to think a player isn't playing well anymore. I don't agree he'd be replaced easily. Midfielders struggle to adapt, see arda.

He was poor last season until March where he hit form. This season he started well and faded.

We need to be using him like Xavi was last season from now on but that will take a marquee midfield signing because you can't drop him for Arda.

 

[Stric]

Just to help me understand this better, if money and/or relationships were no issue, what would you guys consider marquee midfield signings?

 

[Nucky]

Just to help me understand this better, if money and/or relationships were no issue, what would you guys consider marquee midfield signings?

Paul Pogba without doubt.. He is like 22 and already TOP 5 midfielder in the world.. I think he would be perfect for our midfield..

 

[Jamie Cal]

He didn't have a brilliant second half this season, but he was great in the 1st half. His exibition in the bernaleo comes to mind. And I'm seeing some pundits from spain and catalunya praising him, saying this season he was better than in the treble. I think his inconsistency is his biggest problem nowadays. But doing the invisible work can get people to think a player isn't playing well anymore. I don't agree he'd be replaced easily. Midfielders struggle to adapt, see arda.

You're just skipping over all I said about the final 3rd every time I post. It's no good picking when he's done something good like in the Madrid game because it's clearly not a reflection of what he brings game by game. He's consistently not doing it but with the odd patch of something good.

True enough about Arda but that comes over time. One good pre season and plenty of game time to understand what he needs to do could make a player of him. That said, I really don't see what we're gonna do with him beyond next season even if he has a good year. A midfielder with legs and he's easily replacable to me.

 

[Flavia]

You're just skipping over all I said about the final 3rd every time I post. It's no good picking when he's done something good like in the Madrid game because it's clearly not a reflection of what he brings game by game. He's consistently not doing it but with the odd patch of something good.

True enough about Arda but that comes over time. One good pre season and plenty of game time to understand what he needs to do could make a player of him. That said, I really don't see what we're gonna do with him beyond next season even if he has a good year. A midfielder with legs and he's easily replacable to me.

Check footyfan's post just above, about the final 3rd.

Iniesta has been hailed as having a great season from a lot of experts. This text here it's very good in assessing his season: http://www.eumd.es/2016/05/repaso-barca-campeon-liga-iniesta/

 

[Jamie Cal]

Read Footyfan's post, and again, it's all harking back to "he's never there in the final 3rd". Like I said, I don't doubt him in the middle, his technical skill, and I think he's put in a good shift recently.

Look at just 15:10 here: http://www.fullmatchesandshows.com/2016/05/14/granada-vs-barcelona-highlights-full-match/3/

Now, that's just one instance because it's fresh in my head, but look where Messi is (he even tries to make a run on the second go), but on the right side we almost always have one of Suarez/Dani/Rakitic, making a run. As I said, there's plenty of times where we'll build up the right up to the point Messi has to turn back and hook across field, he's been in the play making position way too much the last month (especially against Atleti where we became one-note), but you can't just pin it all on his positioning either.

And even then, one of our biggest weaknesses is distance shooting. Against park buses, setting up a shot and letting the ball break can be vital, it's what led to Suarez goal vs Atleti. Though the blame isn't totally on him, he's in better positions than the rest of the guys we have.

Anyway, all of that is semantics, but on the whole, watch any match and his final nuanced ball is almost never fruitful.

 

[Flavia]

Read Footyfan's post, and again, it's all harking back to "he's never there in the final 3rd". Like I said, I don't doubt him in the middle, his technical skill, and I think he's put in a good shift recently.

"Almost never" is not "never". There will be one or two instances, but that's not his primarly job anymore. His position changed. And I have to agree with [MENTION=11986]footyfan[/MENTION], this is nitpicking. I'm seeing Iniesta get praised for his new role everywhere.