Arthur

[Vilarrubi]

I will say only one thing in the end (sorry read only first paragraph). We managed to loose in CL with scores like 0:3, 0:4, 0:3 against far inferior teams in otherwise successful seasons in recent years because we couldn't control midfield for shit. Had only defensive or offensive players. No one to glue them together or manage the keepball and retention. Even if i'd take your ludicrous hyperbola of "only controller" seriously, it would still be better to have at least one than none. Or we can keep relying on Busquets as our sole playmaker in midfield. Suit yourself.

+1 and people still blame Messi.... midfield has been horrible in those CL ties we’ve lost

 

[clemente]

Yes all we did against Roma is pass to ter Stegen which smashes the goal to Alisson lol, someone like Arthur that can at least "pass sideways" would have saved us from eberassement. Rakitic just cannot turn and dribble in tight spaces like that and it was a possession giveaway every time he got the ball.

 

[BBZ8800]

I will say only one thing in the end (sorry read only first paragraph). We managed to loose in CL with scores like 0:3, 0:4, 0:3 against far inferior teams in otherwise successful seasons in recent years because we couldn't control midfield for shit. Had only defensive or offensive players. No one to glue them together or manage the keepball and retention. Even if i'd take your ludicrous hyperbola of "only controller" seriously, it would still be better to have at least one than none. Or we can keep relying on Busquets as our sole playmaker in midfield. Suit yourself.

+1 and people still blame Messi.... midfield has been horrible in those CL ties we’ve lost

Imo, it's a matter about what do you think is a reason for our fall.

You think that it is only a lack of a controller, fine.

Imo, it is:
1. players aged (Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Busquets, Alves)
2. players won too many trophies
3. opponents figured us out
4. players are not moving of the ball that much anymore
5. weaker midfield
6. no plan B, and we can play only through the ground, and usually through the middle

But, one interesting thing:
A finals from 2011'.
Look how many true midfielders and "false" midfielders we had:
1. Busquets on his prime
2. Xavi on his prime
3. Iniesta on his prime
False midfielders:
4. Dani Alves on his prime
5. Pedro, hardworking winger dropping back
6. young Messi as a false 9, playing in the middle and dropping to help the midfield
Also, I could add:
7. Mascherano as a CB, who is also a CDM

So, out of 10 outfield players, we had 6 midfielders plus Mascherano.
Further, when was the last time when we dominated opponents?
1. in 2012 under Pep
2. and in 2013 under Tito
After that, we lost that control forever, right?

But, look at our team in 2013:
Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas, Dani Alves
Messi, Pedro in attack.
That is 7 midfielders, more or less, all moving a lot and no one is too individual.

Let's see what happened after 2013:
We bought Neymar, and Pedro was benched.
So, that is 7 midfielders dropped to 6.
Xavi aged and stopped playing as a starter in upcoming years.
That is 6 midfielders dropping to 5 (Rakitic is not THAT type of a player).
Dani Alves was sold.
That is 5 midfielders dropping to 4.
Fabregas was sold, that is 4 midfielders dropped to 3.
Iniesta aged.
Messi aged.
Busquets aged.

So, now, go back to 2012 or 2013 one more time:
Messi, Pedro, Fabregas
Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Alves
Mascherano as a CB
7+1 midfielders.

Today:
Messi not running.
Suarez not a TikiTaka player.
Neymar/Dembele different players.
No Dani Alves.
Xavi gone.
Iniesta old and gone.
Busquets slow and old.
Rakitic, not that type of a player.
+ Add to this how opponents figured us out over years.

My point: one player alone (controller) won't solve those problems.
We weren't bad against Atletico, Juventus, Roma, Psg only because of a lack of a controller.
A lot of things happened since 2012 or 2013.

Yes all we did against Roma is pass to ter Stegen which smashes the goal to Alisson lol, someone like Arthur that can at least "pass sideways" would have saved us from eberassement. Rakitic just cannot turn and dribble in tight spaces like that and it was a possession giveaway every time he got the ball.

Whom will he pass the ball?

Messi is not moving upfront.
Luis also.
Iniesta was dead after 8 minutes.
Busquets is behind him.
Roberto is lost as a RM.

With whom would have Arthur played passes in that match?
With Busquets: me to you, you to me, me to you, you to me for 100 times?

I am not buying that theory that Arthur would have changed something in that match.

 

[Vilarrubi]

Imo, it's a matter about what do you think is a reason for our fall.

You think that it is only a lack of a controller, fine.

Imo, it is:
1. players aged (Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Busquets, Alves)
2. players won too many trophies
3. opponents figured us out
4. players are not moving of the ball that much anymore
5. weaker midfield
6. no plan B, and we can play only through the ground, and usually through the middle

But, one interesting thing:
A finals from 2011'.
Look how many true midfielders and "false" midfielders we had:
1. Busquets on his prime
2. Xavi on his prime
3. Iniesta on his prime
False midfielders:
4. Dani Alves on his prime
5. Pedro, hardworking winger dropping back
6. young Messi as a false 9, playing in the middle and dropping to help the midfield
Also, I could add:
7. Mascherano as a CB, who is also a CDM

So, out of 10 outfield players, we had 6 midfielders plus Mascherano.
Further, when was the last time when we dominated opponents?
1. in 2012 under Pep
2. and in 2013 under Tito
After that, we lost that control forever, right?

But, look at our team in 2013:
Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas, Dani Alves
Messi, Pedro in attack.
That is 7 midfielders, more or less, all moving a lot and no one is too individual.

Let's see what happened after 2013:
We bought Neymar, and Pedro was benched.
So, that is 7 midfielders dropped to 6.
Xavi aged and stopped playing as a starter in upcoming years.
That is 6 midfielders dropping to 5 (Rakitic is not THAT type of a player).
Dani Alves was sold.
That is 5 midfielders dropping to 4.
Fabregas was sold, that is 4 midfielders dropped to 3.
Iniesta aged.
Messi aged.
Busquets aged.

So, now, go back to 2012 or 2013 one more time:
Messi, Pedro, Fabregas
Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Alves
Mascherano as a CB
7+1 midfielders.

Today:
Messi not running.
Suarez not a TikiTaka player.
Neymar/Dembele different players.
No Dani Alves.
Xavi gone.
Iniesta old and gone.
Busquets slow and old.
Rakitic, not that type of a player.
+ Add to this how opponents figured us out over years.

My point: one player alone (controller) won't solve those problems.
We weren't bad against Atletico, Juventus, Roma, Psg only because of a lack of a controller.
A lot of things happened since 2012 or 2013.

I didn’t say we needed a controller.. I’ve always thought whole midfield was shocking. Iniesta, Raki and Busi.

 

[Gnidrologist]

Actually we do need one. As clemente says, Rakitic (who's natural substitute would be Arthur) in those games was woeful, because he can only be effective when we bully some la liga scrub. He has weak/slow technique receiving the ball, he can't turn for shit and he has very weak awareness, so all he could do was pass back or loose the ball. Arthur is very good in these kind of situations. Getting the ball in tight spot, getting rid of press and find a guy in space to give a "safe pass". Also, he immediately follows that with his own movement either as a decoy, to grant more space to guy with the ball or being constantly available if ball needs to be passed back, if the one in possession can't find solution. Rinse and repeat. Team that wants to play possession football, but have no player in the who can actually possess the ball = fail. They would be better off parking the bus or playing hoofball in those games.

 

[serghei]

serghei, not directly related to your post, wanted to ask you a question. Are you - all things considered (such as movement, attackers in front, role and so on) - content with the creativity Arthur has shown since coming here?

Well, he barely played, but when he did play he was very good. CM position is more about control and providing options for the ball carrier, than it is about creativity. He plays in a deep position. If there is a midfielder who will have freedom to get forward and attack to provide killer passes in the last third that will be Coutinho, not Arthur.

His lack of creativity is a fabrication. I don't even know what you guys mean with creativity. It's such a vague concept that it should be replaced with something more specific and clear.
I already did watch Arthur specifically at times and most of the times he plays forward passes when they are available to make. Sure, there are at times some better more riskier passes that he will be able to make once he becomes a starter. Those have nothing to do with creativity, but with his confidence at the moment. Valverde isn't doing too much to help that part is he?

 

[clemente]

Whom will he pass the ball?

Messi is not moving upfront.
Luis also.
Iniesta was dead after 8 minutes.
Busquets is behind him.
Roberto is lost as a RM.

With whom would have Arthur played passes in that match?
With Busquets: me to you, you to me, me to you, you to me for 100 times?

I am not buying that theory that Arthur would have changed something in that match.

Messi was waiting for anything, Luis is useless I don't expect anything from him, its not possible to die after 8 minutes, sure he can pass to Busquets back and forth 100 times, we would have won that way.

 

[BusiTheKing]

bbz, your arguments are coherent, but it seems you are willfully altering the reality to support them. There is simply not nearly enough evidence to make those conclusions about Arthur, that he's so helplessly incapable of creative output.

You also make it sound like the ability to produce key forward passes is an entirely isolated skillset. Like it's some kind of seperate gene that either you have it or you don't. Well, it's not. You play them with the same two feet that you do anything else with. And Arthur's feet clearly have nothing wrong with them. Creativity and vision is in every touch, pass, and off-the-ball movement, not just when you're attempting forward passes. What Tite said about Arthur, for example, is nothing else than a testament to his creativity. Just because he doesn't employ it offensively as much as you'd like, doesn't mean it's not there.

The creative capacity of a player certainly isn't measured alone by the amount of forward passes he elects to take. Ceteris paribus, that variable would tell you more about his tactical instructions and courage than anything else. As he gradually gains the latter, I have no doubt we will see him more disposed to make the risky passes. And well, the former determines the rest.

 

[Gnidrologist]

sure he can pass to Busquets back and forth 100 times, we would have won that way.

This!
We played that way a lot of games in Pep's era.

 

[xXKonan]

While I said he does need to improve some things I do however think the whole forward passing thing is a bit overblown at least right now anyway.

There's really not a reason for him to just randomly spam forward and through balls for the sake of just doing it. If he kept doing that which led to a shitload of turnovers you bet your ass off guys like Pep and even Valverde would get mad at him for doing it. I'm not totally saying he should keep passing it sideways but he shouldn't be forced to keep passing the ball forward without options to recieve it.

Having good player movement helps out a lot as well. Having that confidence in your teammates to always be on the move gives Arthur a lot of options as well. Xavi was so good at picking out players due to that as well.

 

[GOAT_SUAREZ]

Arthur not in the squad

 

[serghei]

Good. He'll start vs PSV then on tuesday. Or at least that's what common sense indicates it should happen.

 

[messi2140]

Good. He'll start vs PSV then on tuesday. Or at least that's what common sense indicates it should happen.

No way he rotates in the first CL game. Im expecting the starting 11 in both games with some subs in the 75th min

 

[serghei]

No way he rotates in the first CL game. Im expecting the starting 11 in both games with some subs in the 75th min

It's by far the easiest game in the group.

 

[Joan]

Arthur tweeted a picture of him training with the caption: “Ready!” but quickly deleted it after finding out wasn’t included in the matchday squad. [sport]

Ouch!