Arthur
- Thread starter Jair Ventura
- Start date
Lapi
Member
True, but you shouldn't forget that this specific forum - which is almost the sole English one related to Barca - is neither filled with football experts nor with users who would go well beyond the actual results.
I read this forum for 3-4 years, which is enough to see the fluctuations, one may also notice the ever changing number of useless and uninformative posts by active users, apart from the few exceptionally good posts here and there, the general level of the forum is getting lower and lower.
So this is the 'environment' that you communicate with, you swim in, which - in the optimal case - should also determine your own 'tactics', reactions or the lack of reactions as well.
Apart from the average user, who rarely writes more than a heavily emotional sentence after games, so counting only the users with some kind of intellect and analytical capabilities, you can easily observe that there have been two distinctive types here.
1. The user who joins, writes a lot of messages in a year, then he disappears.
2. The user who writes sparingly but usually comes up with good observations, then also disappears after some time.
Regarding the second type, I guess, the main reason for not continuing too long is the actual verbal and mettle quality of the discussions here. It can be very boring after some time. Definitely it is not for someone having an intellect or communication skills above a high-school degree.
Thus you can observe yourself being more or less consequent and static, in a very rapidly changing environment here.
I think you wish to entertain yourself in the forum, and perhaps achieve a kind of appreciation, that simply can not be achieved here. This where the "talking to yourself" part comes into action.
In your answer, you once again talk about players, players who were or were not successful wearing the Barca shirt.
Yes, most probably you were right about some of the players, whereas you were not, related to other players.
That is more than normal. It's natural. Even the best theoretical experts are damn wrong about some talented ones, who could easily disappear in the theatrical slote of the game.
Regarding your favorite statistics, alas, there is a catch for you and unfortunately you don't seem to admit or realize that.
Stats are often relevant, even significant, but other times those mean no proof whatsoever. Statistics are rarely to never mean evidence or approbation. Scientifically speaking: the "Galilean method" only works and are taken as evidence, if 99.9% of experiments and tests give the very same result.
As it is not possible in football and there are a lot of almost subjective - visual and contextual - factors, trying to prove everything or anything by mere statistics, is not the way to go.
I personally don't think you are right about either Arthur or Dembele, but it doesn't matter. What matters is the drive and ardour you have been trying to prove your subjective personal feelings about these players. Whatever you say, list or try to persuade others with, still remains a subjective opinion, simply because in football there is NO OBJECTIVE ground, other than actual and unbiased observations. But observations are not statistical in nature.
Where you are mistaken the MOST is the role of the system and the coach.
You try to PULL PLAYERS out of their tactical contexts, something that depends on the manager only, and you try to estimate or evaluate them OUTSIDE of the actual tactical system they play in.
As it is a futile experiment - even theoretically so - you most often end up with giving up just too easily on a player, someone who could be a great one playing elsewhere, with a different coach and system.
You say you were "the most hated" at times in the forum.
I don't think that would be true. Perhaps the most controversial and stubborn.
But we both know even if you were 'hated', that's something you like to be, provoke to be and makes you unique.
Nello
Member
Well written.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
If you cant see the difference between Arthur and Denis, Samper, Halilovic etc you are truly lost.
Edit: You probably would have written Iniesta off because he was often injured and got substituted in his younger years
I have never said that they are on the same level.
I have always said for Denis that he will be a midtable player one day.
For Halilovic, that he will struggle to be a 1st division player.
For Samper, the same.
For Dembele, that his level eventually will be a sub in big clubs or a starter at Arsenal/Tottenham level. He will never be a starter in any big club (except maybe Psg).
Malcom, Crystal Palace or Russia/Ukraine level.
About Arthur, I am not comparing him with these players from above.
I am referring to posts: the best midfielder in the world, or the 2nd best midfielder in the world.
He is (imo) nowhere near that and imo it is very questionable whether he will be a starter here in 3-4 years once when his flaws will be figured out on larger samples.
So, these guys from above were players for midtable and bottom table teams.
Arthur can play in top5-6 clubs, especially in Italy, where they play a slower, more static football.
Anyway, I wanted to write one more thing. [MENTION=21779]Lapi[/MENTION] mentioned a lot of things about forum, and I agree.
But here is one more thing which is bothering me and I don't understand why users can't turn into "that" direction.
For example, you, me, Konan, DonAk, KingLeo, Serghei, anyone.
Imagine if someone would ask us today to rate every single player by player from let's say Man Utd.
We are neutral about Man Utd, so we will offer honest and more objective views on their players.
And if I'll say, let's say: De Gea is overrated. Or Pogba has never reached his expected level, not too many of OUR FANS will get mad or write angry posts.
Majority will agree.
Now, a step2: imagine if we (Barca fans) offer our views on Man Utd players on RedCaffe, and if we say that majority of their players are meh or overrated.
How would Man Utd's fans react?
They would insult us and tell us: you are an idiot, ban this guy, you don't know anything about football, you are a hater.
Isn't it?
Man Utd fans wouldn't agree with our assessments of their players, isn't it?
And now, I am asking you: which one, we (Barca fans who are neutral about Man Utd), or Man Utd's fans, who are biased, emotional and invested a lot of time, emotions and dreams in their players=who will be more objective and closer to reality in assessments?
= of course that WE (Barca's or neutral fans).
Now, "my problem" with our forum and our fans is that the same is happening here.
Similar how Man Utd's fans (or Juve's, Bayern's, Real's) are deluded about majority of their players, the same is happening here.
Except that the highest level of delusion happens with young La Masia players (Bartra, Samper, Adama, Halilovic, Arnaiz lol that way a funny era, Alena, Puig, Oriol etc) and with young talents bought from other countries (Dembele, Malcom, Arthur, Frenkie, Mina, Todibo, Wague etc).
And now, if any of you have ever read Man Utd's or Juve's forum and if you have laughed to their level of delusion, then no offense, but I feel the same on majority of topics about young/La Masia players on our forum.
But again, since for years I am trying to understand human psychology, patterns and behavior, my theory is that you guys are mostly younger fans or who are still HEAVILY emotionally invested in Barca and then your emotions are a huge part of your assessment process.
For example, I was also crazy for football in my teens and early 20s in late 90s and early 00s, and I used to watch CL football on Tuesday and Wednesday (when there was 2 group stage cycles with 12 group stage matches in total), then Uefa Cup matches on Thursday and then 2-3-4 Italian/English/Spanish league matches every single week.
Plus, I was reading local sport papers every morning and reading everything about domestic and international football.
Then, when internet became popular in early 00s, I started to read El Mundo Deportivo/Sport/Marca/As EVERY SINGLE MORNING to read all news and gossip about Barca and Real.
In those days, I was also heavily emotionally attached to football and my favorite teams. And I had an insane belief in every single of our players and especially in youngsters.
I was especially buying a hype about Croatian young players from my local sport papers.
But then, after they have screwed me and made a fool out of me for 50 times, I lost faith in youngsters and figured out that 95% of youngsters are just hype, papers needing to sell stories and clubs needing to sell their youngsters.
And that real gems happen extremely rarely.
Also, I never "hated" any of our players back then.
I remember in early 2000s, that I only disliked Fabio Rochemback because I was annoyed with his stupid decisions and shooting from 40 meters all the time, like an idiot.
Also, in 2006, I only disliked Deco from time to time because he also had some stupid decisions from time to time, for my taste. But he was still an awesome player.
But then, after watching football too heavily and reading football news 24/7 for 10-12 years, I have burned out around 2007 and totally lost a need to watch football.
For around 3-4 years, I only watched Barca's CL knockout matches and some bigger La Liga matches.
I totally stopped watching my domestic league, I stopped watching my NT team, I stopped watching Italian and English league.
After a few years, my motivation for football slightly returned, but it is nowhere near as high as it was when I was a teen or in early 20s.
In that sense, my honest confession is that today I am somewhat numb in terms of football.
If Barca will win=good.
If we will lose=ok, let's go out to bars or watch a movie, I am not sad at all.
While in early 2000s, I was sad for weeks or Months when we were KOd in CL matches and I was waiting for Months for a new CL to start.
In that sense, my theory is: since I am not that emotionally invested in football anymore (and my emotions turned to some other things in life) and I can survive BOTH if we are good or if we are crap, this is why I have no problems saying: this guy is crap or pointing to flaws of our players.
While majority of you, younger fans are in a place where I was 10-15 years ago, where you live, breathe and dream football, and your judgements are clouded by emotions and too much investment.
To some extent, maybe this is an explanation why I don't hate EV as much as you do.
So, no offense to anyone and if I sound like talking to myself sometimes, but I really think that my views are less emotional than of majority of fans.
Except in the case of Rakitic, since he is my countryman and World Cup 2018 final is probably the most emotional achievement for me as a fan, so in the case of Raki, my judgements are probably clouded due to emotions and to a joy which he and my NT have offered to me. He is an absolute hero and immortal for me, an awesome footballer.
But then again, the same is happening with majority of you guys, with our players.
Again, no offense to anyone, but I will still believe more to myself when I say that Dembele is dumb, that Arthur is very limited in the attacking 3rd and in defending, that Puig can be a player only in minds of Barcaforum posters etc.
I respect views of all of you.
Even of guys who don't agree with me and who are insulting me.
But again, imo, your views are heavily influenced by: your age, too much emotional investment at Barca/football in this moment, and as explained lots of times= with a human desire to always see a light and hope. If there is no hope, why live at all? In our case, young players (in this moment: Frenkie and Arthur) are pillars of your dreams and of your hopes for a brighter future.
And then, when I say that Arthur is shit in defending, that is not an objective debate at all.
When you are reading my posts and stats, you are having an internal battle with yourself. Where you have to decide:
1) whether Arthur is that guy from your heads and from your dreams
2) or this guy from reality, who has a nice amount of flaws?
For now, defenses and walls in your heads are still strong and you are not allowing those bad thoughts/stats to enter your brain.
With Dembele, who was very dumb, a horrible fit, with horrible first touch, horrible passes, horrible attitude, we needed 2 years for you to accept some of his flaws.
Arthur is a way better player than Dembele and with smaller flaws, so of course that this internal process in your heads will last longer than in Dembele's case.
And please, you don't have to confess it to anyone, but please guys, ask yourself sometimes=how much are your judgements of Barca's players influenced by your desires and emotions?
I can be Barca's fan even if our players suck.
I don't have problems with that.
I will watch matches even if Raki, Arthur, Frenkie, Busi, Suarez=everyone suck.
I can watch matches even if all La Masia kids are a crap and if bad times are infront of us.
So what?
But what baffles me is that denial/delusion of our fans where every player needs to be hyped, the best, a solution for the next 10 years etc.
Why can't we be more realistic fans even if our players are meh?
(Of course, I know the answer=again, because you need HOPE)
Kisses and hugs
Last edited:
Messigician
Senior Member
I have never said that they are on the same level.
I have always said for Denis that he will be a midtable player one day.
For Halilovic, that he will struggle to be a 1st division player.
For Samper, the same.
For Dembele, that his level eventually will be a sub in big clubs or a starter at Arsenal/Tottenham level. He will never be a starter in any big club (except maybe Psg).
Malcom, Crystal Palace or Russia/Ukraine level.
About Arthur, I am not comparing him with these players from above.
I am referring to posts: the best midfielder in the world, or the 2nd best midfielder in the world.
He is (imo) nowhere near that and imo it is very questionable whether he will be a starter here in 3-4 years once when his flaws will be figured out on larger samples.
So, these guys from above were players for midtable and bottom table teams.
Arthur can play in top5-6 clubs, especially in Italy, where they play a slower, more static football.
Anyway, I wanted to write one more thing. [MENTION=21779]Lapi[/MENTION] mentioned a lot of things about forum, and I agree.
But here is one more thing which is bothering me and I don't understand why users can't turn into "that" direction.
For example, you, me, Konan, DonAk, KingLeo, Serghei, anyone.
Imagine if someone would ask us today to rate every single player by player from let's say Man Utd.
We are neutral about Man Utd, so we will offer honest and more objective views on their players.
And if I'll say, let's say: De Gea is overrated. Or Pogba has never reached his expected level, not too many of OUR FANS will get mad or write angry posts.
Majority will agree.
Now, a step2: imagine if we (Barca fans) offer our views on Man Utd players on RedCaffe, and if we say that majority of their players are meh or overrated.
How would Man Utd's fans react?
They would insult us and tell us: you are an idiot, ban this guy, you don't know anything about football, you are a hater.
Isn't it?
Man Utd fans wouldn't agree with our assessments of their players, isn't it?
And now, I am asking you: which one, we (Barca fans who are neutral about Man Utd), or Man Utd's fans, who are biased, emotional and invested a lot of time, emotions and dreams in their players=who will be more objective and closer to reality in assessments?
= of course that WE (Barca's or neutral fans).
Now, "my problem" with our forum and our fans is that the same is happening here.
Similar how Man Utd's fans (or Juve's, Bayern's, Real's) are deluded about majority of their players, the same is happening here.
Except that the highest level of delusion happens with young La Masia players (Bartra, Samper, Adama, Halilovic, Arnaiz lol that way a funny era, Alena, Puig, Oriol etc) and with young talents bought from other countries (Dembele, Malcom, Arthur, Frenkie, Mina, Todibo, Wague etc).
And now, if any of you have ever read Man Utd's or Juve's forum and if you have laughed to their level of delusion, then no offense, but I feel the same on majority of topics about young/La Masia players on our forum.
But again, since for years I am trying to understand human psychology, patterns and behavior, my theory is that you guys are mostly younger fans or who are still HEAVILY emotionally invested in Barca and then your emotions are a huge part of your assessment process.
For example, I was always crazy for football in my tens and early 20s in late 90s and early 00s, and I used to watch CL football on Tuesday and Wednesday (when there was 2 group stage cycles with 12 group stage matches in total), then Uefa Cup matches on Thursday and then 2-3-4 Italian/English/Spanish league matches every single week.
Plus, I was reading local sport papers every morning and reading everything about domestic and international football.
Then, when internet became popular in early 00s, I started to read El Mundo Deportivo/Sport/Marca/As EVERY SINGLE MORNING to read all news and gossip about Barca and Real.
In those days, I was also heavily emotionally attached to football and my favorite teams. And I had an insane belief in every single of our players and especially in youngsters.
I was especially buying a hype about Croatian young players from my local sport papers.
But then, after they have screwed me and made a fool out of me for 50 times, I lost faith in youngsters and figured out that 95% of youngsters are just hype, papers needing to sell stories and clubs needing to sell their youngsters.
And that real gems happens extremely rarely.
Also, I never "hated" any of our players back then.
I remember in early 2000s, that I only disliked Fabio Rochemback because I was annoyed with his stupid decisions and shooting from 40 meters all the time, like an idiot.
Also, in 2006, I only disliked Deco from time to time because he also had some stupid decisions from time to time, for my taste. But he was still an awesome player.
But then, after watching football too heavily and reading football news 24/7 for 10-12 years, I have burned out around 2007 and totally lost a need to watch football.
For around 3-4 years, I only watched Barca's CL knockout matches and some bigger La Liga matches.
I totally stopped watching my domestic league, I stopped watching my NT team, I stopped watching Italian and English league.
After a few years, my motivation for football slightly returned, but it is nowhere near as high as it was when I was a teen or in early 20s.
In that sense, my honest confession is that today I am somewhat numb in terms of football.
If Barca will win=good.
If we will lose=ok, let's go our or watch a movie, I am not sad at all.
While in early 2000s, I was sad for weeks or Months when we were KOd in CL matches and I was waiting for Months for a new CL to start.
In that sense, my theory is: since I am not that emotionally invested in football anymore and I can survive BOTH if we are good or if we are crap, this is why I have no problems saying: this guy is crap or pointing to flaws of our players.
While majority of you, younger fans are in a place where I was 10-15 years ago, where you live, breathe and dream football, and your judgements are clouded by emotions and too much investment.
To some extent, maybe this is an explanation why I don't hate EV as much as you do.
So, no offense to anyone and if I sound like talking to myself sometimes, but I really think that my views are less emotional than of majority of fans.
Except in the case of Rakitic, since he is my countryman and World Cup 2018 final is probably the most emotional achievement for me as a fan, so in the case of Raki, my judgements are probably clouded due to emotions and to a joy which he and my NT have offered to me.
But then again, the same is happening with majority of you guys, with others of our players.
Again, no offense to anyone, but I will still believe more to myself when I say that Dembele is dumb, that Arthur is very limited in the attacking 3rd and in defending, that Puig can be a player only in minds of Barcaforum posters etc.
I respect views of all of you.
Even of guys who don't agree with me and who are insulting me.
But again, imo, your views are heavily influenced by: you age, too much emotional investment at Barca/football in this moment, and as explained lots of times= with a human desire to always see a light and hope. If there is no hope, why live at all? In our case, young players (in this moment: Frenkie and Arthur) are pillars of your dreams and of your hopes for a brighter future.
And then, when I say that Arthur is shit in defending, that is not an objective debate at all.
When you are reading my posts and stats, you are having an internal battle with yourself. Where you have to decide:
1) whether Arthur is that guy from your heads and from your dreams
2) or this guy from reality, who has a nice amount of flaws?
For now, defenses and walls in your heads are still strong and you are not allowing those bad thoughts/stats to enter your brain.
With Dembele, who was very dumb, a horrible fit, with horrible first touch, horrible passes, horrible attitude, we needed 2 years for you to accept some of his flaws.
Arthur is a way better player than Dembele and with smaller flaws, so of course that this internal process in your heads will last longer than in Dembele's case.
Aynway, kiss and hugs.
And please, you don't have to confess it to anyone, but please guys, ask yourself sometimes=how much are your judgements of Barca's players influenced by your desires and emotions?
I can be Barca's fan even if our players suck.
I don't have problems with that.
I will watch matches even if Raki, Arthur, Frenkie, Busi, Suarez=everyone suck.
I can watch matches even if all La Masia kids are a crap and if bad times are infront of us.
So what?
But what baffles me is that denial/delusion of our fans where every player needs to be hyped, the best, a solution for the next 10 years etc.
Why can't we be more realistic fans even if our players are meh?
(Of course, I know the answer=again, because you need HOPE)
Kisses and hugs
Bloody brilliant post BBZ, Couldn't agree more mate
Dude, your constant posting about Denis/Samper/Halilovic in the Arthur thread creates a false equivalence (you are aiming for). You know what you did there, mate.
We will see in a few years if you were painfully wrong - or we. Your remaining (if any) credibility will be gone then.
Lapi
Member
If you are "not that emotionally invested in football anymore" why do you HATE and belittle some of Barca's own players so much?
What happened to you when you had been still emotionally involved? Would you have tried to assassinate some of them or putting voodoo-needles into their small clay figures?
But you don't just and simply hate some of these contemporary players, you can't rest until you find some people here (usually the most softy ones), who happen to be having the same exorbitant opinion, so you go on repeating the very same statements over and over again, until you feel there are enough followers to start talking about fractions or tribes (in your own vocabulary).
Unfortunately some others were damn right here when mentioned your tendencies of destructibility, regardless how many kisses and hugs you send around after(!) your propaganda speeches.
It's not only a kind of selfish thirst towards destruction, forming gangs behind a particular opinion and hence trying to divide the forum, but it is having an urge to spread or disseminate those negative feelings?
Let's just suppose you were right about (criticizing and not hating), or belittling a particular player. The average forum people mostly enjoy hating, enjoy being negative, enjoy writing-off footballers once and forever.
At that moment, already 50% of users hate the player, then you come with the irrelevant statistics, repeating gimcrack press articles, and the 50% of aimed negativity goes up to 75%.
Are you happy in this case? Does it give you satisfaction?
If you just repeat and repeat the same words for the sake of getting attention, it's all right, that's your path and game.
But if spreading pure negativity gives you satisfaction, then unfortunately you are irrecoverably far-gone.
What is the point for you in trying to persuade others to share the very same opinion with you?
Do you objectively think that HATRED is a valid emotion towards football players of your own favorite team?
Why don't you have the same POSITIVE attitude towards some players (apart from Rakitic) and argue for them in the positive sense?
Why always following the path of negativity?
Finally: yes, people need hope. Not only in football but in life. What is wrong with that?
Is it the 'rule' that others can't be hopeful with some footballers just because you personally have already sentenced them to be waste or garbage?
CatalinR10
Senior Member
you do not fuck with the goat !
looool
Jcar
Member
Well... Manchester's REDCAFE says that Arthur is brilliant.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/arthur-melo-barcelonas-new-number-eight.441999/page-6
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/arthur-melo-barcelonas-new-number-eight.441999/page-6
I'm not naive enough to say something like "With Arthur we'd have dominated 10-0" but I think having someone who is able to more quickly move the ball on, receive the ball in a tight area and quickly turn would have improved things, we were sooo slow moving the ball around. Again though there's so many problems perhaps sweet fuck all would have changed
EdmondDantes
New member
I'm pleased he wasn't involve in this shower of shite today. Valverde would have surely found a way to blame him somehow.
One of the only players in the squad who delivered mostly 7.5s and above and the second his performance dropped to a 6 point something (for 2 games) he was out - despite the fact he was good in our last game before the international break.
One of the only players in the squad who delivered mostly 7.5s and above and the second his performance dropped to a 6 point something (for 2 games) he was out - despite the fact he was good in our last game before the international break.
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