Arturo Vidal
- Thread starter Barcaman
- Start date
YodaMaster
Member
Also he needs to cool the fuck down. Dude was complaining yesterday because he got subbed off. I mean he came to Barça as an injured alcoholic at 32yo and still has a lot of playing time, he's a starter ffs. He needs to be grateful and shut up. Especially since his competition is Arthur who's by far Barcelona's best midfielder this season.
God Serena
New member
I'm actually quite shocked to see Arthur has more ball recoveries than Vidal.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
A poster who made the original post obviously learned from the best in terms of twisting stats and taking only stats which suit him.
These ball recoveries are probably loose balls or something, I have no idea.
(Maybe someone else knows what is exactly calculated in ball recoveries?)
La Liga:
Vidal: 775 minutes
Tackles: 28
Interceptions: 11
= 39 actions stopped by his body and feet over 775 minutes
Arthur: 838 minutes
Tackles: 7
Interceptions: 5
= 12 actions stopped by his body and feet over 838 minutes
Clearances 9:1 for Vidal also.
48:13 in classical defensive actions.
When you read the original post with cherry picking stats, a reader might really get an impression that Arthur and Vidal have done exactly the same job in defense.
I am impressed by the original author.
This is some quality stat-twisting
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EdmondDantes
New member
Here we go; the chief stats cherry picker is at it again...
Tackles... you don't need to launch yourself in crazy tackles like Vidal did yesterday to regain possession.
There's this concept Arthur has mastered called reading of the game plus anticipation that pays quite the dividends. Hence his 98 recoveries tally.
But let that not get in the way of your throwing Vidal, Arthur, Busquets under the bus to barricad you from admitting the real issue here: Rakitic's atrocious overall form this season.
Tackles... you don't need to launch yourself in crazy tackles like Vidal did yesterday to regain possession.
There's this concept Arthur has mastered called reading of the game plus anticipation that pays quite the dividends. Hence his 98 recoveries tally.
But let that not get in the way of your throwing Vidal, Arthur, Busquets under the bus to barricad you from admitting the real issue here: Rakitic's atrocious overall form this season.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Ok.
Explain me one thing, what type of actions are counted in ball recoveries?
Since we have tackles, interceptions, blocks at who scored and Arthur is poor at those.
Suddenly he is awesome in ball recoveries.
Fine.
Can someone explain WHICH kind of actions are counted in those stats?
The thing which you are mentioning sounds like interceptions.
According to Whoscored stats, Arthur made 5 interceptions in 838 minutes.
That is one in each 168 minutes.
Doesn't sound too good, does it?
I am not saying that stats from Devils' post are false.
I am just interested in what exactly is counted in ball recoveries?
My estimation is that it is a mixture of tackles, interceptions and winning loose balls/nobody's balls.
He probably won LOTS of loose balls then, since in other areas he didn't won too many balls.
EdmondDantes
New member
Why are you being so incredulous all of a sudden BBZ? Are the stats you seem to love so much now factually warping your preconceived notions/wishful thinking?
As per Mundo Deportivo (or SofaScore if you want to look it up yourself) this is what Arthur was up to in his last start vs Sevilla away:
https://www.mundodeportivo.com/futb...arca-sevilla-copa-del-rey-arthur-numeros.html
Los números confirman el liderazgo de Arthur
El centrocampista brasileño encabezó varios aspectos estadísticos del equipo azulgrana en el duelo copero en el Sánchez Pizjuán
-
Numbers confirm Arthur's leadership
Brazilian CM led the way in various statistical aspects of Barcelona's team in cup tie.
most completed tackles: 2
most ball recoveries: 8
10 in one game
along with most dribbles (5) and most chances created (2).
But there you go, 10 defensive actions in a single game. Arthur's defensive side is actually quite good, no wonder he's on 98 recoveries total; if you watched the games perhaps you wouldn't be so indignant upon finding such fact.
--
Anyway, back to Vidal, despite being poor on the ball and seeing his goal threat dry up, I'd still rather see more of Vidal, Arthur & Busquets. Too bad Sergio is suspended for our next league game.
As per Mundo Deportivo (or SofaScore if you want to look it up yourself) this is what Arthur was up to in his last start vs Sevilla away:
https://www.mundodeportivo.com/futb...arca-sevilla-copa-del-rey-arthur-numeros.html
Los números confirman el liderazgo de Arthur
El centrocampista brasileño encabezó varios aspectos estadísticos del equipo azulgrana en el duelo copero en el Sánchez Pizjuán
-
Numbers confirm Arthur's leadership
Brazilian CM led the way in various statistical aspects of Barcelona's team in cup tie.
most completed tackles: 2
most ball recoveries: 8
10 in one game
along with most dribbles (5) and most chances created (2).
But there you go, 10 defensive actions in a single game. Arthur's defensive side is actually quite good, no wonder he's on 98 recoveries total; if you watched the games perhaps you wouldn't be so indignant upon finding such fact.
--
Anyway, back to Vidal, despite being poor on the ball and seeing his goal threat dry up, I'd still rather see more of Vidal, Arthur & Busquets. Too bad Sergio is suspended for our next league game.
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Nothanks
New member
how are ball recovery stats even measured if not by interceptions and tackles on opposition?
it's really simple if you don't trust stats then use the eye test, it doesn't take a genius to see that vidal is a better defensive player than arthur so what is even the argument here.
it's really simple if you don't trust stats then use the eye test, it doesn't take a genius to see that vidal is a better defensive player than arthur so what is even the argument here.
Arizona Scott
New member
I think the real issue is the irrational reactance to Rakitic. He is a very good player, Busi was a great player who is a good player, same with Vidal. Arthur is already a good player. They all have strengths and weaknesses and Rakitic is as close to anyone of them with being complete at this point in all their careers. Him or Busi for sure.
Want data, boom https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/65/Show/Spain-Barcelona. Want more data, flip to CL data. For too exuberance about some and criticism about others, it is good Barca has for good options in the 4 midfield spots and should tailor the combination a bit to the opponent and situation. However I am pretty sure come bigtime game the sub among them will be Arthur or Arturo, and that is the empirically supported position.
Barcilliant
Senior Member
Coutinho, Arthur and Vidal should be our starters. If you go with 4 in midfield you can add Busquets. Rakitic and Busquets together is horrible and has been exposed.. Especially in cl games.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Wait, you are debating on stats and your argument is that a player XX had a certain amount of XX in 1 match.
I don't use Sofascore, so I am kinda lost there.
If you wanna use stats, take the whole season or more matches.
Saying how Arthur had XX tackles or this weird stat: recoveries is equal to saying something like:
Dembele ran with a speed 33 km/h per hour on the last match. Wow!
Roberto ran 8,6 kms. He was bad.
You see, with these stats you need to write:
If Dembele ran 33 km/h per hour...
How much was his previous speed?
And how fast are other players? 25, 30 or 40 km/h, we need some reference.
Or with 8,6 kms from Roberto.
Is that good, bad, average, worse than usual?
We need a reference.
So, Arthur had XX recoveries against Sevilla? Cool.
How many did other guys have?
How many are other guys from our team having in the whole season, not in one match?
I looked at SofaScore, and Arthur's defensive numbers over a whole season are similar to Whoscored.
Overal numbers over the whole season say:
Creativity:
Vidal 71
Rakitic 68
Arthur 60
Attack:
Vidal 63
Rakitic 61
Arthur 54
Technique:
Rakitic 68
Vidal 65
Arthur 63
Tactics:
Rakitic 78
Vidal 70
Arthur 63
Defense:
Vidal 59
Rakitic 58
Arthur 52
Average rating on Sofa score:
Rakitic 7,16
Vidal 6,94
Arthur 6,87
So, over the whole season, on a site which you picked, Arthur has the weakest and ratings in every single area compared to Rakitic and Vidal.
On our forum, he is the best midfielder. In probably every single area, except defending.
Let's just say that stats obviously don't like him too much for now...
I am using an eye test.
But an eye test is subjective.
My eye test (and official stats, it seems) say that Arthur is meh in defending.
When I open this forum, I get an impression that he plays like Xavi in build up and like Puyol in defense.
Guys who don't like Rakitic are writing the same thing after every match: an utter crap. The most useless player ever etc. No matter what he does on a field.
If we'll use an eye test, I guess that tens of guys here will write that Arthur is equally as good as Rakitic in defending, for example.
So, [MENTION=22244]Nothanks[/MENTION] no thanks for the subjective eye test.
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Vidal may have the obvious defensive stats on his side, but Arthur is more important for pur Defence in general than Vidal. Vidal is running all over the place creating empty Spaces on the field which the opponent make use of. While Arthur with his prrssure resistens, passing and more fixed position creates stability and structure. Vidal can be important with X-Factor and posiive unpredictablity, but that mainly in the offensive.
And that said, Arthur clearly attributes more to our Defence than offence. But he is getting there match by match. He is not our best midfielder. Becausd We don't have one right now. Sergio, Arthur, Rakitic and Vidal are quality Wise more or less equal. And used in combinatipn Valverde sees fit. But Vidal is gone soon, and Arthur will most likely surpass all 3 of them (neither of the other 3 i getting ypunger), and he has it all to be a good to very very good midfielder for us in Future. Vidal isnt more than a handy handy tool.
Arizona Scott
New member
This is a silly argument. They have been great in CL games, and Classicos and vs Atletico--which are higher level than most CL ties. Barca has been exposed for peaking early (best team pre April most recent years) and not being fresh for late CL ties. Not much more than that to it.
Well its just __ new flavor of the month will be our savior. Pretty much the whole squad is looked on that way except Messi and Busi, but some starting to turn on Busi too. Excellent post on sofascore season data BTW.
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