Arturo Vidal
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EdmondDantes
New member
No matter how many times you say that, it won't make Arthur's 98 recoveries (and counting) any less true.
As for what the forum has been saying about Arthur, how do you know that? Since Arthur came back from injury - and delivering masterclass after masterclass - you and your perniciously ambiguous stats haven't been anywhere to be seen in his thread since?
But then again, you said in the Frenkie thread you don't reply to posts 'summoning you' when players you hate like Arthur are playing well...
I suppose that 6 week silence is quite the compliment from you to young Arthur.
te amo barca
Blaugrana al vent
[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION], in a situation in which Vidal and Rakitic lose the ball, Arthur manages to keep it 99/100 times. He simply makes us so much better in defense by allowing us not to lose possession and resort to the defensive phase as a result. Seems like you're ignoring it.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
I love when you need to add a strength to your argument with: you said this or that in the other topic, to make my argument in THIS topic weaker, lol.
Quality debating mate, lol.
Anyway, what I find funny is:
When Arthur (or any player whom we like) has bad stats, people will say: football is more than just stats.
But then, when the same player is actually good in some other stats, the same people will jump and post, and DEFEND stats like crazy, like you in your post:
A few days ago you were laughing at stats saying how football is more than that and how I don't understand it, and now you love stats, when they suit your argument.
And then people call me the stat-twister or a hypocrite while all users are doing the same shit with Rakitic, Arthur, Messi/CR7, Semedo/Roberto based on whom the like more.
For example: CR7 is better than Messi in some stats.
People will say: football is more than stats.
When Messi will break another record 7 days later, the same people will jump and say: omg, Messi broke another record (in stats).
And stats are suddenly good, reliable adn a good indicator of player's greatness.
The same is with Arthur in this topic.
A few days ago stats were bad when they were against him in terms of tackles and interceptions.
Today, stats are good, since he looks good in recoveries part...
Well...
In theory, I get where you are coming from.
In stats, it is different:
Arthur passing accuracy 94,4%
Rakitic passing accuracy 92,1%
That is 1-2 lost balls/bad passes per match difference.
So, with Arthur instead of Raki, we will lose 1-2 balls less in attack.
But then, Raki will win 2-3 balls more in defense, so everything is equal again.
But I get you, and I will agree that there are some things which can't be measured regarding Arthur, his controlling and keeping possession compared to Rakitic.
But there are also some very simple things which can be measured in stats.
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Arizona Scott
New member
BBZ, do they have a stat that reflects you were the last player with the ball/touching the ball before possession was turned over. So passing inaccuracy would be part but also loose dribbles and getting pick pocketed. Obviously your creative and attacking players will have more, but I think it would be interesting to compare among forwards, midfielders, defenders, etc. Though it would also be more common (and less bad) for a fullback in the attacking 3rd than anywhere else.
Cule4life
The Culest
YodaMaster
Member
Stats are shit. I believe what I see in games and games show me that Arthur is far superior to Vidal and Rakitic altogether.
But you don't watch games, you watch stats and I'm now convinced of this since our last interaction on Rabiot's thread.
Knowing that you don't watch games and care only about stats, some people will go down on your low level of football analysis.
To the whole barcaforum: did you see how triggered BBZ got and how quickly he reacted to Devils post showing that Arthur recovers more balls than Vidal ?
It's pitiful how this guy lives only for stats and can't discuss football by any other means.
So [MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] since every football discussion with you involves stats as main factor, what do you suggest ? To ignore you ? Then why would you post your usual bullshit on this forum ?
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Stats are not useless.
If Arthur has a higher passing accuracy than Vidal, that is not a coincidence.
If Vidal has more tackles than Arthur, that is not a coincidence either.
But, we can agree that stats don't tell the whole story.
You need eye test and some additional factors, knowledge and understanding.
But an eye test alone is not an answer either.
Since emotions and subjectivity plays a big part there.
The point of my last post towards Edmond was: 2 days ago he said explicitly something about me, stats and how they mean shit.
2 days later, Arthur's positive stats are important suddenly.
Regarding Rabiot and not watching football, I don't have free time to watch too many matches per week.
I am watching Barca's matches, some EPL matches and a random match here and there.
Regarding Rabiot, I watched a few matches, the same as 90% of people here.
And lots of clips and highlights to check some things.
Since you are from France, you obviously know way more about him than me.
No. I am just checking Whoscored usually.
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/284114/MatchStatistics/Arthur
You can go under Match statistics of each player and see defensive stats, offensive, passing, overall for every single game.
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YodaMaster
Member
They're not completely useless, true. But you can use them to make false statements too. Plus they don't tell the whole story. That's why I think we could get better debates without making it all about stats like you always do.
Except if you're an 15yo kid or a grown man who started to watch football last week, you're supposed to have those additional factors, knowledge and understanding. A passionate football fan should have the knowledge and the understanding of the game. That's why for me a guy who writes "Rakitic is a great midfielder, Barcelona's best" is either a troll, a kid or a guy who doesn't know shit about the sport.
In my personal case, there's no subjectivity or emotions involved when I speak about a player. I love Dembélé for example and I already told you a few months ago that we should sell him if he doesn't become more disciplined and more professional.
I have nothing against Rakitic, I enjoyed him in 2014-2015 because even though he never was a Barca DNA player, he still was useful back then for that team and system. Now he's toxic that's why I don't want to see him start alongside Busquets.
I don't like Vidal's profile but I recognize that he brings something different and that's why I believe he should start and play a considerable number of games.
Arizona Scott
New member
Saying rakitic is the best midfielder on barca is much closer to reality than saying he is the worst midfielder barca has. So if the 1st is trolling, the 2nd is extreme trolling. Personally i dont think either is trolling--specifically said to be outrageous and provoke , i think it is primarily the product of myopic football watching for the most part by passionate fans.
Potroh
New member
Now that's an absolutely valid observation!
I suggest you to take it seriously, specially that you have said it.
Well, if you insist on naming everything that makes a connoisseur an expert, than the "eye test" is a pejorative amphibology.
The eye doesn't see anything, but the brain does... And there are good brains out there, understanding the intricacies without an excel table.
- In the good old times, no coach or professional was digging out statistics and there was no sane human either counting everything that happens on the pitch.
True, this is a different -computer - age, so factors (if exist) really become a bit important, but just as a part of the entire picture.
- Coaches, like Woody Hayes, Alex Ferguson, Marcello Lippi, Udo Lattek, Trapattoni, Remsey, Bobby Robson, etc.etc., never actually used raw and lifeless numbers to judge their players.
They used their brains and most importantly their INSTINCTS.
- Have you been a coach? If not then let me tell you (because I did that for quite some time) that the coach is either sitting on the bench or standing at the line, so in fact he doesn't see a shit of the game from that perspective!
Playgrounds usually slope a bit to let the rain flow side-wise, so it happens that while standing the coach doesn't even see the line at the opposite end.
Hence in the best case he can just conjecture what happens at the other end of the ground, often judging that from the reactions of his players and the noise of the spectators...
There's a quite limited angle to see things, but what every coach knows, is that the close proximity to the players give them a hint and not what they actually able to see.
You and by now myself and 98% of us here watch the games on TV, that allows to grasp it from the ideal "tactical perspective", seeing spaces, gaps, movements, that the coach is unable to see. You can see much more compared to the coach or even the players.
You also see endless quantity of instant replays, slow motion and the like, which means you see much more than the coach does.
At the same time, the coach is using his knowledge, expertise and before all his predictive instinct, that's how he is able to "see" the game.
The coaches who watch their own games again or let someone else watch them for him, ask for opinions, trends and tendencies, make notes. But those notes are NOT statistical in nature!
So when you mention "eye test", you are a bit mistaken about how to see and what to see there, from the perspective of a coach.
I'm telling this, because willy-nilly, either if we admit or not, but we all are playing the "embodiment game" role, as if we were the coach...
Arizona Scott
New member
Those days are over, moneyball is throughout professional sport. Within football it helps make better acquisitions, and helps inform tactics and player selection. They are very helpful tools--help reflect on conventional wisdom in sport tactics and improve decision making to lead to a greater chance to win. The are tools to help inform better decision making, but instinct and motivation always are key to the best managers--there are things measured and things not measured.
DonAndres
Wild Man of Borneo
Beast. Before he came on, the 2nd half was going Sevilla's way in terms of the momentum. He comes on and instead of being pressed back into our half he pressures them into errors and creates transition opportunities. His motor is so high and he's always moving/pressing/making vertical plays.
Singlehandedly shifted the momentum from conceding 1 to adding another 2 goals through transition plays which he had a clear hand in. Never ending engine and always hustling in duels, which takes the load off of the likes of Arthur/Busi/Messi.
Singlehandedly shifted the momentum from conceding 1 to adding another 2 goals through transition plays which he had a clear hand in. Never ending engine and always hustling in duels, which takes the load off of the likes of Arthur/Busi/Messi.
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